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# Heavy Bullets!

#71
06-30-2012, 09:12 AM
 Official LRH Sponsor Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 2,979
Re: Heavy Bullets!

I think the thing that has been missed on the bc issue is that the weight of the bullet is part of the bc calculation. The aluminum ball and lead ball of the same exact dimensions for example. The lead ball will have a higher bc because it is heavier. Thus it will have less wind drift.

You can have a lighter bullet of same caliber with higher bc because of form. The lighter bullet with better form will have less wind drift, at all distances, than the heavier one even if they are driven at the same velocity. Now we all know that we can drive the better form lighter weight bullet faster than the heavier one of lesser form which will make the performance difference in favor of the lighter bullet exponentially better.

In short the rule that heavier bullets perform better than lighter bullets in flight is short sighted and wrong.

My .02

Steve
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Hammer Bullets
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To hunt... or not to hunt...? What a stupid question.
#72
06-30-2012, 10:01 AM
 Platinum Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsend, Montana. Posts: 8,652
Re: Heavy Bullets!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RockyMtnMT Now we all know that we can drive the better form lighter weight bullet faster than the heavier one of lesser form which will make the performance difference in favor of the lighter bullet exponentially better. Steve
Yes SD is part of the equation, but do we not know for a fact that the heavier bullet will retain velocity longer and become the faster of the two? It is a fact that the lighter bullets loose velocity faster, correct? Comparing lighter and heavier like a 210 with a BC of .631 fired at a MV of 2900 compared to a 230 with a BC of .711 fired at 2775 MV from the same rifle. By 1000 yards the 230 becomes the faster bullet and also offers over 125 LBS more energy. Testing these side by side shows the 230 to have a substantial amount less wind drift too in actual field testing. So are we saying that BC is the only difference that matters? Like I said before, I have yet to see a lighter bullet win this test in my field testing for what ever reason. Even when the BC are not as far spread as the above test.

Jeff
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#73
06-30-2012, 10:17 AM
 Platinum Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: The cold part of Montana Posts: 1,391
Re: Heavy Bullets!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RockyMtnMT I think the thing that has been missed on the bc issue is that the weight of the bullet is part of the bc calculation. The aluminum ball and lead ball of the same exact dimensions for example. The lead ball will have a higher bc because it is heavier. Thus it will have less wind drift. You can have a lighter bullet of same caliber with higher bc because of form. The lighter bullet with better form will have less wind drift, at all distances, than the heavier one even if they are driven at the same velocity. Now we all know that we can drive the better form lighter weight bullet faster than the heavier one of lesser form which will make the performance difference in favor of the lighter bullet exponentially better. In short the rule that heavier bullets perform better than lighter bullets in flight is short sighted and wrong. My .02 Steve
Yea if your comparing a heavy round nose bullet to a lighter bullet of VLD design, the lighter bullet will out perform the heavier bullet in regards to external ballistics (duh). That's stepping away from the nature of the discussion with that though by comparing strawberries to lemons for sweetness. It's been proven out time and again that 2 bullets of the same basic shape (design) differing only in weight, launched with the same muzzle energy the heavier bullet will over take the velocity advantage of the lighter bullet down range with, energy, wind drift and eventually drop.

Brian Litz did the home work here:
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/...mNumberOne.pdf
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/...mNumberTwo.pdf
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Keep in mind the animals we shoot for food and display are not bullet proof. Contrary to popular belief, they bleed and die just like they did a hundred years ago. Being competent with a given rifle is far more important than impressive ballistics and poor shootability. High velocity misses never put a steak in the freezer.

Joe
#74
06-30-2012, 10:39 AM
 Official LRH Sponsor Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 2,979
Re: Heavy Bullets!

That would be because the bullets that you guys are comparing the heavier one has the higher bc. So the slower, heavier, higher bc bullet will always catch the lighter, faster, lesser bc bullet at some point down range for drop and drift. Same bc bullets of differing weights, the heavier one will never catch the lighter one because of the velocity difference.

My earlier example was of the extreme. We are actually talking about much more subtle differences.

The point is that weight is calculated into bc. More weight adds to the bc. But just because a bullet is heavier it does not automatically have a better bc. That is why the .338 is out running the .50 for drop and drift to any distance.

Steve
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Hammer Bullets
Simply Better

To hunt... or not to hunt...? What a stupid question.
#75
06-30-2012, 10:49 AM
 Platinum Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,828
Re: Heavy Bullets!

I think the point that they were trying to make is that if you had two bullets of the same bullet type, one being lighter than the other but both had the same BC, tue lighter bullet would win out. You could also drive the lighter bullet faster. I agree with that but the fact is that it just doesn't happen where the lighter bullet of the same make has a higher BC than the heavier bullet. LTLR compared a lighter bullet that he was testing to the 300 gr SMK saying that the lighter bullet has a higher BC and thus flies better and farther. That may well be but it isn't the same design as te SMK. I bet you TONS of money that if the maker of that lighter bullet made a 300 gr bullet, it would have a higher BC than the lighter one that was made before.

If BC is everything, then why not use the highest BC bullet out there for the caliber that you are using? If you do that with any bullet company, using the same design, it will be the heaviest bullet of that design that has the higher BC.
#76
06-30-2012, 11:05 AM
 Platinum Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,612
Re: Heavy Bullets!

RockyMtn, you are exactly correct and I have put this in this discussion at least three times. The weight is part of the BC calculation. The highest BC wins at some point down range, not the heaviest weight. Shoot the bullet that best performs within the distance you plan to encounter game.

For example I have been testing the 225 grain Cutting Edge bullet for a year with a .64 BC. I put some results on another thread. I can drive that bullet over 500 fps faster than a 300 grain bullet and it completely overwhelms the 300 grain bullet ballisticaly to 1200+ yards. That varies a little depending on a particular setup. I do not hunt beyond 1200 yards. Anyone that does is for show to see if they can hit it and not for sure kills. The 225 grain CE is the best choice ballistically for hunting at distances most hunters shoot. If I want to bust rocks or hit targets at 2000 yards the new 300 grain Berger with an advertised overwhelming BC over .8 is a good choice. The BC is what I am looking at and not the weight.

I have just started testing the new 260 grain Cutting Edge bullet at an advertised .76 BC. I can drive it 250 fps faster than a 300 grain bullet. If that BC holds true, and I have not tested that yet, it will be a bullet to consider for long range. Just looking at the long, sleek design of the bullet which is quite a bit longer than a 300 grain lead core bullet it would not surprise me if the BC is pretty close to advertised. Working with the long copper Barnes bullets that have shown very high bc per weight numbers gives me a hint the 260 CE has a high BC. There are lighter options that can give a guy an advantage depending on how far he shoots. But at some point downrange the highest BC will win.

Ballistic calculators and kestrels do not lie. Plug in the parameters and that is where your bullet will hit. No matter the weight.
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#77
06-30-2012, 11:40 AM
 Platinum Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsend, Montana. Posts: 8,652
Re: Heavy Bullets!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Long Time Long Ranger I do not hunt beyond 1200 yards. Anyone that does is for show to see if they can hit it and not for sure kills.
I think you need to rethink this statement Don. I take that as throwing dirt in faces here. Is that the kind of discussion you wish to open up? You started this thread saying it was BS. But you sure have used it to forward your agenda.

Plus are you sure the bullet you are refering to will expand at all let alone at 1200? Might want to take that into consideration. I know I started my expansion testing of the bullet I hunt with at 1200 before I took them to any game. Where are the expansion test results of the CuttingEdge bullets? So far these pics are all I have seen.

I can't believe you said that.

Jeff
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