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GAP talked my buddy out of a 300 RUM

 
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  #15  
Old 12-15-2011, 03:52 AM
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Re: GAP talked my buddy out of a 300 RUM

Tyler, I just hope one of you guys also shoots 300 WM so you can take over as MS' reloading slave.

I don't have 300 WM dies and besides I could use a break

Consider the baton passed!
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  #16  
Old 12-15-2011, 08:23 AM
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Re: GAP talked my buddy out of a 300 RUM

wow. soa has a little butt hurt issue here. so, you would tell someone who shoots less than two hundred rounds of year with their long range hunting rig to go out and try to take elk at 1,000 yards????? thats pretty ignorant and stupid. its people like like that, that give actual long range hunters a bad name. it has been fun to see you throw temper tantrums across the internet on various forums. if you knew anything about George, like others have stated, you would know he does hunt quite a bit. he builds great rifles. ever hear of the non-typical line of rifles he makes??? i dont know, this is just a shot in the dark here, but it doesnt look like its been breaded and deep fried in "tacticool - aid". before you go on bashing a great rifle builder next time, you may want to do a little homework on your part so you do not continue to sound like a 14 year old arm chair shooter.
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  #17  
Old 12-15-2011, 10:11 AM
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Re: GAP talked my buddy out of a 300 RUM

Not a fan of GAP rifles but his reasoning is very sound. If a person is going to have only one rifle and it has to be the practice rifle and the hunting rifle then barrel life becomes a driving issue. Personally I can afford to have several rifles and one is a dedicated practice rifle in 308.

Practice and comfort shooting at long range should be done well before hunting season and if you have only one rifle then that is the barrel that gets a couple of hundred rounds down it every year not just the first year. You cannot be using an overbore magnum for that very meany years without rebarreling.

Here is an old thread of mine which illustrates how much I believe in practice and how easy it is to put practice to work in a hunting situation.

Practice and Teamwork

The two of them went on to make kills of 910 yards and 707 yards that hunting season. But all of that success came from days and days on the rifle range and hundreds rounds fired.
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  #18  
Old 12-15-2011, 01:31 PM
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Re: GAP talked my buddy out of a 300 RUM

The 300 RUM is an extremely good chambering for a long range hunting rifle. I guess it depends on what "Long Range" means to the customer or builder. For 600-700 yards or less, they are correct, not much need for such a chambering unless your shooting in areas where wind is an ever constant concern.

For ranges past this, the big 300 RUM really comes into its own compared to the smaller chamberings. The 7mm WSM is a great chambering. I build many of them every year and they are great, easy shooting rifles and perform far better then most would ever expect. Still, when your in unknown conditions, I always feel better with a larger chambering because it allows a slightly larger margin of error in reading conditions simply because external conditions effect these big chamberings less then the small ones.

NOw, you could pick several combinations that would make the 7mm WSM look just as impressive as the RUM at long range but when you compare the best of the best of each, the 300 RUM certainly has a clear advantage at long range especially on big game such as elk.

As far as recoil, not sure where they are coming from there. A 300 RUM with a quality muzzle brake simply has no recoil, literally no recoil so I do not understand that comment.

Now, the larger the chambering, the more stress the rifle has to endure and as such, its easier to build a very precision rifle in a smaller chambering then a large one. GAP makes a fine rifle so I do not see that being a problem so I have no idea why they recommended this.

Again, it all comes down to what your defination of "long range" is and what game you will be hunting and where you will be hunting so maybe that came into the recommendation.

I know when I recommend a chambering to a customer, its a very specific recommendation for each customer. Often times two similiar requests will have a different chambering recommendation. With so many good choices we can choose from a wide selection to meet goals as perfectly as possible.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #19  
Old 12-15-2011, 03:00 PM
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Posts: 227
Re: GAP talked my buddy out of a 300 RUM

I think there is more to be said about being able to practice and see how your combo really does in actual conditions, this may mean give up a little shear performance. I personally have had more trouble getting magnum cases to shoot well. I think GAP gave the right advice. provided they can get the wsm to feed really good and there are not issues with that, I would assume they would not offer it if that couldn't.

I think the better BC of the 7mm bullets is going to be a more practical setup than the RUM. heck graybull seems to do ALOT with 6.5's they even have a 243 shooting 105's on film dumping elk. besides muzzle brakes SUCK you guys autta know that. an 8# bare 7wsm needs no brake.
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  #20  
Old 12-15-2011, 03:25 PM
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Re: GAP talked my buddy out of a 300 RUM

"Muzzle brakes SUCK"

Why exactly is that?????

A quality muzzle brake will do as much if not more to improve most long range shooters and hunters then any other single aspect of a rifle given its a quality rifle.

- No recoil distraction

- No loss of field of view

- Shooter being able to spot impact is a HUGE confidence booster

You take two rifles of the same set up, barring a 20 lb class rifle, lets say a 10 lb rifle made for all around long range hunting, one with a muzzle brake, one without and 90% of the time any given shooter will shoot the braked rifle more consistantly then the unbraked rifle, yes, even with a 7mm WSM.

Now many say they are to loud for hunting...... BUNK. This is LONG RANGE HUNTING.com, you have PLENTY of time to put on some quality hearing protection and with the huge selection of electronic hearing protection on the market, this is an excuss from decades past.

I have NEVER had any problem getting a 300 RUM to shoot right there with any 7mm WSM. Perhaps you would see the benefit of trying a quality muzzle brake and you would likely see that you can shoot the big magnums just as well as the smaller chamberings. That is nearly always the case in my experience with new shooters trying large magnums.

Hell, I make alot of 300 RUMs for ladies that have no problem at all putting first shot impact within 1/4 moa of point of aim out to 1/2 mile once they get an accurate drop chart figured up for their rifles. In my opinion, use as much power as you can accurately shoot at long range. When everything goes right, the smaller chamberings can do amazing work, but when things do not go quite right, thats when the big guns can get you out of trouble more often then the smaller guns..

Case in point, this years pronghorn season. I set up on a good buck at 823 yards. Wind at my location was nearly calm but I knew that where the herd of pronghorns were at, there was at least a 6-8 mph crosswind. I dialed for that estimate and took the shot on a buck standing broadside.

The shot landed just under the spine and just ahead of the rear ham, a poor shot by every discription. HOWEVER, the buck fell to the shot and was dead by the time I had gotten to him without hitting a single bone, WHY???

Well, I was using my 7mm Allen Magnum loaded with the 160 gr Accubond at nearly 3500 fps. When I walked up to the buck I found that at around 200 yards down range, what I thought was a 6-8 mph wind was actually a 15-17 mph wind whipping over the ridgeline...... Had I been shooting a lesser 7mm such as the WSM a couple things would have happened.

1. The error in windage hold would have likely put the shot right through the ham. Had the pelvis been shattered the buck would have dropped to the shot as well but would not have died. IF only one leg had been broken, I would have easily lost that buck.

2. Even with the same shot placement, it is likely that the WSM would not have not produced the energy dump required to kill the buck quickly. The 7mm AM broke the spine without even hitting it. It also hit with enough force that it split the paunch, liver and diaphram without toughing any of them. It also severel bruised the back of both lungs. Something the much smaller 7mm WSM would have never done. In fact, with that shot placement, It would be likely that I would have never recovered that buck because of very minimal damage done on that impact location.

I do not think about the results of using a specific chambering when everything goes RIGHT. I think about what happens when a shot lands on the fringes of the vital zone. This is where the big magnums SHINE and the smaller chamberings really drop off in effective game harvesting. And honestly, many more shots impact on the fringes then dead center on the vitals.

Again, it also comes back to what you consider long range hunting distances. A short 4-5 years ago, when you talked about long range hunting on this site, it generally ment 1/2 mile range or more. Not 400-500 yard shots are referred to as long range shots. In some situations certainly but in good conditions, this range is really moderate range hunting.

For true long range hunting, especially on heavier game, there is no comparision between a 7mm WSM and a 300 RUM, especially when both are loaded with bullets that will perform extremely well terminally. A 300 RUM loaded with a 200 gr Accubond at 3200-3250 fps is flat out amazing terminally at any range out to 1000 yards.

Yes you could come up with numerous examples of better ballistics in the 7mm that would at least match this combo but if you used a bullet with the same terminal performance as the Accubond, the 7mm will fall well short when fired from a small case like the WSM. This is not opinion, its a proven fact. Again, put the bullet in the right place and results are amazing, even on big game like elk at very long ranges, put the same bullet on the fringes of a heavy big game animal and you will have a much harder time recovering your animal compared to the same shot with a larger caliber chambering.

Shot placement is key. To make good shot placement, you have to know the external conditions. IF you can not nail the conditions on the nose, the most potent ballistically performing chambering will get cover more of that margin of error then a lesser chambering. Terminally, the heavier, larger diameter, faster bullet will nearly always produce better results when shots are not exactly perfect.

Now if you blow a leg off or punch a shot right through the guts, what your shooting makes little difference but even in those cases, I would rather have more gun then needed then shoot a smaller chambering anyday.

Just my opinion.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #21  
Old 12-15-2011, 05:20 PM
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Re: GAP talked my buddy out of a 300 RUM

We hosted a writers Nilgai hunt to introduce our new McMillan Hunting knife made for us by DiamondBlade. One of the writers had just had surgery on his right wrist so he was concerned about recoil. Since we were hunting Nilgai and they really tough, all we brought we 30 cal and up. So he grabbed a 300 WSM (no brake) while we were on the range deciding who was going to shoot what. After he pulled the trigger, I saw him wince a little and asked him to do me a favor. I handed him an Outdoorsman in 300 RUM and asked him to try it. He reluctantly agreed and fire a round down range. After the first shot he smiled and insisted on shooting another. He ended up hunting with the rifle and shooting his Nilgai with it. The Outdoorsman is 7lb 12 oz, has a fluted #5 barrel and a Vais muzzle break. Honestly it compares to the recoil of a .308 or less. I don't have a clue why anyone would talk someone out of a 300 RUM provided it has a well designed stock and a muzzle break.
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