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First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

 
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  #57  
Old 03-05-2013, 03:43 PM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by orkan View Post
I agree. The more options there are, the better.

I think we finally stumbled onto the core issue. Broz is an expert in the ways of SFP. It's what he's comfortable with, and can get it done in any situation with SFP optics. It's tried, proven, and effective. I too can make a SFP optic do what ever I would need to get the shot done.
This is great! So, since your proposing a solid case for ffp and conceding a point that sfp will also work, we have 2 winners - all good things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by orkan View Post
Keep one thing in mind. It's very frustrating to listen to people claim a certain thing doesn't work well, when I and many others have seen it work well for years. I'm not saying SFP doesn't work. I'm simply opposing those claiming FFP doesn't work. It does, and it works quite well. For some, it works better.
I like your point - for some it works better. For others, maybe they didn't like that "flavor" - some like vanilla some like strawberry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orkan View Post
Think about that for a second. If you are using something, and it works great, and others claim it doesn't work... what conclusions could you draw?

1) They don't know how to use it.
2) Theirs is broken, or not the right one.
3) It works, but they simply don't "prefer it" and will claim it doesn't work anyway, for various reasons.
Condemnation is never a good thing. Innovation - it's a difficult thing. Attempting the latter and avoiding the former is nearly impossible....


Quote:
Originally Posted by orkan View Post
If people have used FFP optics, and don't like it. I'm fine with that.

It's when they start claiming that FFP optics can't get it done as well as SFP. That's when I have a problem.
One thing that has been good for me to keep in mind during negotiations is trying to remember to not make (or take) criticisms personally. If someone has a disagreement about whatever i'm supporting, i try to learn and understand what they believe about my position. Then I try to clarify any factual misunderstandings through dialogue. If what i'm supporting still doesn't work for them (or they have another perfectly viable solution), i just let the matter go - argument rarely (if ever) changes a persons opinions/beliefs.
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  #58  
Old 03-05-2013, 04:09 PM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

Orkan, would you please take off your FFP glasses for one minute and show me where I said that FFP would not work for anything? as you alluded to in your last post? Below is my first post quoted. I only stated I prefer SFP for what I do and gave solid accurate reasons why. I also stated in other posts that I do not compete and am not in a hurry to shoot long range like in some competitions. If I were, I would use the necessary equipment to run up front. But if someone spooks game and must hurry a shot from 600 or 1000 yards, then I say they need to sharpen their stalking skills or get out of the truck to hunt. This past season we actually shot one elk, took a phone call, and then took a second one out of the same herd and the distance was only 20 yards different, and it was 20 yards closer. There is no need to get excited and hurry a LR shot. I prefer taking the time to do proper preparation and take one slow shot. Many times I even have the shooter dry fire a couple times on the animal first. Hurry up shots are not cool in long range hunting. I am no dummy, I am not using out dated equipment. I will spend what it takes to be good at what I do. Example, the new LRKM, ATACR, Vectronix PLRF10 etc. I use to build, tune and drive nitro burning race cars and actually won a US championship or two. I didn't do that with outdated "old ways" or being thick headed. If I found a FFP that would work as well as a SFP for me, the way I hunt, by golly I would have one even if I had to work even harder to earn the extra money to get it.

You pointed out that there are (or at least one) FFP reticle that on max power is almost as thin as a SFP NPR1 that I prefer. But you and I both know that in order for a FFP to be that fine on top it will be very hard to see on low magnification when I go in the woods.

The big argument about needing the reticle calibration on all powers is a preference. It is true, that FFP allows the reticle to be accurate on all powers. But please understand that some people have shot enough to realize they don't need that. I sure don't for the added $1800 in the price. I, not in a rush now, will make sure my scope is on 22X or if I do find that 22X is too much for the mirage that day I can wheel it back to 11X and know that the reticle is now reading x2. Not that hard for an option I hardly ever use and the added $1800.

BignGreen and I have both tried explaining to you how we hunt and use scopes and why we prefer SFP for our needs. But you insist we are "out of the loop" not up to speed, or using "old ways". You accuse me and others of spreading inaccuracies. I call BS. What I am doing is offering what works for me, what I prefer, and how it works so people can make the decision best for them. I have no motive, I am not selling scopes, I am just a guy that loves long range and rifle shooting and have done it enough to keep the freezer full. So what is so wrong with sharing what works, explaining why, and doing it for no charge or commission?

Jeff

PS: I am not a guide, I simply help my friends, family and neighbors fill their tags and again I do it for fun, not profit.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Broz View Post
There are also people that have spent the extra money for FFP scopes and did not like them, at all. I being one.

The fact is, I shoot long range, not just to 700 yards now, but regularly to a mile and beyond. I much prefer the SFP for the FACT that it allows the target to grow in size as the magnification is increased while the cross hair lines remain the same size and appear finer on the target. This I prefer for a more precise point of aim on a long range target. Even at only 1000 yards.

In many cases, a FFP with a fine enough cross hair to suit me on full magnification has a crosshair that is too fine on low power. I will admit I hardly ever turn my long range scopes down in power, but if I go into a wooded area I will. That is not a good time for the reticle to get finer, hard to see, in lower light. For this reason I say the FFP is backwards. If it would have a thicker reticle when on low power and get finer as the magnification was increased it would make more sense to me for both ends of the power range. But I realize that is probably impossible. So for me the SFP is a better choice for my type of hunting and shooting. I will take a larger target and finer crosshair for long range anytime I can get it.

Jeff
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  #59  
Old 03-05-2013, 04:51 PM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broz View Post
Orkan, would you please take off your FFP glasses for one minute and show me where I said that FFP would not work for anything? as you alluded to in your last post? Below is my first post quoted. I only stated I prefer SFP for what I do and gave solid accurate reasons why.
Yes, but some of those "solid accurate reasons" are not so solid or accurate in my opinion. They are more perceptions and opinions that you have, which you are entitled to. I absolutely concede they may be solid and accurate facts for you, in your setting, with the models of FFP optics you have experience with. I feel it important for the other side of the equation to be filled in for those not in your setting, or with your specific situation. We hold a different opinion of what FFP is capable of. I have seen it work in situations where you claim it not to work. My 5-17 USO is a great example. Low light in dark woods is no problem for this optic on 5x.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broz View Post
I also stated in other posts that I do not compete and am not in a hurry to shoot long range like in some competitions. If I were, I would use the necessary equipment to run up front.
As I said, FFP works equally well for competition as it does for long range hunting. SFP works well for long range hunting, not so much for competition.

As you said, there are quintessential differences between our two shooting styles. These differences explain our equipment choices entirely. My choices as a competitor don't preclude me from long range hunting situations. Your choices as a hunter, definitely preclude you from competition situations.

So, its easy to say then that a rifle wearing a FFP optic is more capable than a rifle wearing a SFP optic, provided that the driver is up to snuff. As you and others have pointed out, you sometimes pay for that extra capability. You don't need the capability Broz, and I'm fine with that. Others do, or at least want it even if they don't need it. Soon, there will be FFP options on the market at every price point, and that will bridge the financial delta. Same money, more capability. Who wouldn't want that?

Sadly, right now there are only a few ELR FFP options with thin reticles, and they are all expensive. So again, I will concede that for some people, in some situations, the extra money isn't worth the gain.

Yet if they have the money, the choice is clear. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Having FFP definitely doesn't hurt you. Low magnifications included. Hey, there's always illumination. ;) (in the states that allow it anyway)
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  #60  
Old 03-05-2013, 04:58 PM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broz View Post
It is true, that FFP allows the reticle to be accurate on all powers. But please understand that some people have shot enough to realize they don't need that.
I have a hard time even knowing what to say to that.

On the surface, its unbelievably condescending.

Volume of fire doesn't negate features of an optic. I can introduce you to a guy that can be competitive at 1000yds with a sharps buffalo rifle. Doesn't mean that's what I want to use. Volume of fire has NOTHING to do with why that feature is important.
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  #61  
Old 03-05-2013, 04:59 PM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by orkan View Post
Yet if they have the money, the choice is clear. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Having FFP definitely doesn't hurt you. Low magnifications included. Hey, there's always illumination. ;) (in the states that allow it anyway)
So you are saying anything a SFP will do a FFP will do better?
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  #62  
Old 03-05-2013, 05:10 PM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by orkan View Post
I have a hard time even knowing what to say to that.

On the surface, its unbelievably condescending.

Volume of fire doesn't negate features of an optic. I can introduce you to a guy that can be competitive at 1000yds with a sharps buffalo rifle. Doesn't mean that's what I want to use. Volume of fire has NOTHING to do with why that feature is important.
Well if you read the rest , and would have quoted the entire statement it is very clear.

Not condescending at all...Maybe you need to read it again.?

"The big argument about needing the reticle calibration on all powers is a preference. It is true, that FFP allows the reticle to be accurate on all powers. But please understand that some people have shot enough to realize they don't need that. I sure don't for the added $1800 in the price. I, not in a rush now, will make sure my scope is on 22X or if I do find that 22X is too much for the mirage that day I can wheel it back to 11X and know that the reticle is now reading x2. Not that hard for an option I hardly ever use and the added $1800".

I could have said it a little better by adding for their type of shooting.

Now what is so difficult about this? On full magnification my SFP reticle will function the same as a FFP reticle. If I do crank it down it reads twice the calibration. Which by the way allows twice the hold over from the reticle and something the FFP does not have to offer. I may not use that option much with my 100 moa of elevation plus the reticle. But some scopes with less built in elevation to dial sure could.
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  #63  
Old 03-05-2013, 05:26 PM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

If any of the readers here (Mr. Orkan excluded) feels I have posted any inaccurate facts or misled anyone please tell me and I will gladly stop posting on this thread. I wish it were easier to get a point across in print but it is very hard some times.

Trust me when I say if I felt a FFP would bring something to my table my new ELR rifle would be wearing one. I just don't see it and I have tried.

Jeff
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