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First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

 
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  #204  
Old 03-18-2013, 09:07 AM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

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Originally Posted by bigngreen View Post
It would be enormously helpful if some of the FFP guys would get a list of FFP optics and their reticle specs, I've found a good number of them but some are just a bugger to find. So far the only one that comes close to what seems to be the thin reticle standard of the NP-R1 is the Premier 5-25 then the next thinnest I can find is the Vortex HS LR 6-24 in FFP and then the Premier 3-15, from there it just gets ridiculous and I found some up at .250 MOA. Can't find the break down for the SWFA SS HD scopes but that is one I'd like to know because of the price range.
I have been looking too. I want to see for myself, so I am looking for one in MOA with 120 plus in elevation and a .062 or thinner reticle like the NP-R1. Not that the NP-R1 is the best reticle for all purposes, but it is for sure the one most commonly used for ELR shooting currently.

I am still looking to confirm the thickness of the S&B PMII with a P4 and P4F. I believe the F is thinner but still .130". The 25X S&B PMII is available in .25 moa and has close to 120 MOA of elevation. I have heard good thing about the S&B PMII from another shooter that does indeed shoot well past 2000 yards. My trust in him and his credibility has me looking them over. He chooses the S&B over the Premier and has tested them both extensively. Seems the Premier failed the PSR contract testing with some construction issues. And the glass prescription for both were written by the same engineers. So the problem was with the rest of the scope not glass.

Right now I have an SFP ATACR in my hands for review. I will be mounting it up and running it through the course starting this week. My first (off rifle) impressions of it have me itching to get it mounted on a good 338 and go afield. It has the thicker (.140") MOAR reticle, the only choice so far but there is hope for a finer reticle down the road. So my hopes are strong as the SFP ATACR will not have the issues with the shrinking FFP reticle on low magnification. That is a big issue for me hunting elk.

Jeff
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  #205  
Old 03-18-2013, 10:07 AM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

My Vortex Dealer has just told me that Reticle on the 4-16x50 FFP is .06mm which according to Spec sheets meens that it will Cover 6mm AT 100yds, and the 4-16x50 SFP is 0.03mm which meens the Reticle at 100yds Does Cover 3mm of the Target,

So at 400yds 6mm will cover around an Inch which is not good if your trying to keep a tight group and at 500 thats nearly an Inch and 1/4, So although its not good to loose sight of your rounds on the Target If you think that this only has a serious effect at 100 Possibly 200 and maybe 300yds when you sighting in your scope But really at 100yds is only just the width of a .308 hole anyway, So the SFP covers 3mm does have the slight edge in this case, But after getting all the specs on the top brand scopes etc these Vortex are way in front of the rest because their nearest competitors Reticles are a bit more than Double the thickness

So thankyou again to The Person who told me about them here,

John
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  #206  
Old 03-18-2013, 10:15 AM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

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Originally Posted by Broz View Post
He chooses the S&B over the Premier and has tested them both extensively. Seems the Premier failed the PSR contract testing with some construction issues. And the glass prescription for both were written by the same engineers. So the problem was with the rest of the scope not glass.
Early problems, which have been fixed as of about 2 years ago.

We've had 8 S&B PMII's fail to track in the last year. Only 1 premier. 2 other premier's had parallax issues (early models), but nothing that made the optic un-shootable. We have had ZERO new Premier's fail in any capacity.

Premier loses MSR AFTER they've fixed problems... but somehow wins the USMC day scope contract in 2008? S&B isn't fun to compete against for military contracts... and premier has won that battle before. The fact that they didn't this time is due to turmoil in the company... NOT because of their products. For the end consumer this is no issue, because the new ownership which took control in january is way better than the old ownership. So the dots you are connecting don't really go together.

If you are trying to claim that S&B's are better than Premier's and don't go down as much... well good luck with that one. I've got another PMII in my office right now that will not track down less than 3 mils once run up. It MUST be ran down to zero and then back up, or it won't track. I've seen more than one top competitor finish at the bottom of the pack due to his S&B failing at a match.

Or maybe I'm just intentionally using deficient equipment that fails more than other brands because it's fun.

You want the most reliable scope? Nightforce. I've had fewer nightforce optics go down in my presence than all others. Doesn't mean that's what I use. If Premier wouldn't have stumbled out of the gate, then I'd be able to say they are just as reliable. But I can't. Their early scopes had issues.
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  #207  
Old 03-18-2013, 10:34 AM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

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Originally Posted by orkan View Post
So the dots you are connecting don't really go together.

Or maybe I'm just intentionally using deficient equipment that fails more than other brands because it's fun.
Orkan, I am simply doing my own research on a few scopes and sharing facts I have found. It is an honest effort to learn for myself. Much of it is being done in private. I didn't post about the internal company issues, I have no proof of what is going on there. Only read that the future of the company was of concern. But I guess, Thanks for bringing that up.

I am being civil and trying to talk about the top FFP's and learn. If I am going to pay upwards of $3500 for a scope you can bet I will do some homework. None of my post was untrue. It is very important to me, and other readers, especially if I was to consider a used or older Premier, or any Premier for that matter. I know it is hard for you, as you have decided to make this personal, but please refrain from directing your attitude filled comments to me. I simply don't need them, nor does anyone else.

Thank you
Jeff
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  #208  
Old 03-18-2013, 11:00 AM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

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Originally Posted by Broz View Post
I know it is hard for you, as you have decided to make this personal, but please refrain from directing your attitude filled comments to me. I simply don't need them, nor does anyone else.
I didn't realize you were so very sensitive jeff. I wasn't aware that any of that post would hurt your feelings.
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  #209  
Old 03-18-2013, 11:13 AM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

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Originally Posted by orkan View Post
Shooting ELR does not preclude the use of FFP. Popular ELR FFP optics are just as thick/thin as SFP options.
I understand and agree, but I think the way an SFP scope enlarges the target in comparison to the reticle may be an advantage for the real long stuff. It at least would be something I would look at if I was going for a total ELR rig.

Also, I personally don't know of any FFP reticle that is as thin as the NPR1. Maybe Premier's 5-25 XR but I know it varies in thickness depending on what scope it is in. I think the thinnest I am aware of is .09 Moa compared to the NPR1 at .0625.
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  #210  
Old 03-18-2013, 11:19 AM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

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Originally Posted by Scot E View Post
I understand and agree, but I think the way an SFP scope enlarges the target in comparison to the reticle may be an advantage for the real long stuff. It at least would be something I would look at if I was going for a total ELR rig.

Also, I personally don't know of any FFP reticle that is as thin as the NPR1. Maybe Premier's 5-25 XR but I know it varies in thickness depending on what scope it is in. I think the thinnest I am aware of is .09 Moa compared to the NPR1 at .0625.
Scot, Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Vortex actually has one offered in the PST. Most others are running twice or more as thick with maybe the Premier being at, or just under .1 moa. My fear is then what it will look like on 5X. I am afraid it would not be good in timber.

Jeff
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