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First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

 
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  #176  
Old 03-14-2013, 03:03 PM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

Theres some good points there scot, I guess we all are guilty of cutting corners by using little tricks that we have learned or picked up,
when really we are just avoiding using the scope the correct way and by either failing to learn or use those methods As used by the military,

When I first tried to learn to do it right it never made sence way back then, As for me I like the Idea of FFP scopes thats why I ordered one Two weeks back but thats the straight mildot type mainly because I dont like busy reticles,
But thats a personal thing not a Fault in a scopes design, and your right about the cost and quality that is available, you can buy some of the best scopes ever made for under $1000,

I dont think any scope has ever affected my speed of placing the shot in the right place weather its day or night, for a while it was my own bad habits that held me back

john
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  #177  
Old 03-14-2013, 03:04 PM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scot E View Post
This thread made me chuckle many times. If I didn't know better I would have thought that we were deciding on which arm to cut off and how each would most drastically affect our shooting. It is just a scope guys and personal preference, style, and likes actually do come into play.
Not just an arm, some of these optics ask for the leg also. Pretty good thoughts all the way through Scot.
I've been going through the reticles available in FFP, and really have not found one I like.
The Leupold TMR is what I'm currently using and like. Is there a reticle in FFP that is open in the center.
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  #178  
Old 03-14-2013, 04:36 PM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackdog View Post
Scot - can you explain how a FFP scope is 'far superior to this style of wind compensation' than a SFP would be? For example, if my NPR1 is dialed out fully at 22x, and I've dialed up my elevation, how would using the windage marks in my reticle be so inferior in this situation?

I'm not trying to question your judgement or anything, just honestly trying to find out what I might be missing out on. I generally don't dial wind either and seem to follow the same pattern you do. Dial elevation, figure out what the wind is doing and what those holds would need to be, and hold accordingly.
Hey Blackdog,

As a clarifier, I stated "far superior for my style of hunting/shooting." I wasn't necessarily stating it is for everyone's style. Like I mentioned I like to be able to take quick shots if needed and I will shoot an animal I like from zero to 1000 yards. I hold for wind and elevation out as far as my gun/scope combo and the game I am shooting will allow. I will dial distance and hold wind beyond that. So within those parameters not having to worry about what power I am on and having the same subtentions regardless of power is a huge benefit. That is where the far superior comment came from.

In your specific example there would be no advantage to FFP, except that FFP's are cooler! Just Playin!

Scot E.
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  #179  
Old 03-14-2013, 04:40 PM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

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Originally Posted by HARPERC View Post
Not just an arm, some of these optics ask for the leg also. Pretty good thoughts all the way through Scot.
I've been going through the reticles available in FFP, and really have not found one I like.
The Leupold TMR is what I'm currently using and like. Is there a reticle in FFP that is open in the center.
Vortex makes a couple that are open center, a very nice touch for an FFP reticle IMO.

Scot E.
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  #180  
Old 03-14-2013, 10:37 PM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

Interesting things I am reading. Seems some FFP users admittedly prefer a tapered crosshair that directs their eye to the finer aim point at the cross, and also like a reticle with an open center. But yet they also tell of how they prefer to hold off for wind rather than dial and use the center where these center reticle features reside.


Also, it should be said that just because you dial for an average wind does not in any way mean you need to "wait for the same wind" to fire. I have taken many spotter calls with a left or right hold after dialing in for the average wind. In fact this was used a lot in the advanced Long Range course at Defensive Edge.

Jeff
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  #181  
Old 03-15-2013, 03:24 AM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

Bros, I have seen the same Reticle design's in SFP Scopes as those here in the FFP pictures, So surely with all those windage and eleivation marks, they would both be able to do the same as what some are calling Quick Shots,

I agree that the concept of FFP is a cool idea, But apart from Target and crosshair staying as a matched size to eachother then there is no other real issue/benifit here, Which means this all goes back to the first comments by you and Orkan, that the bottom line is IT's all about personal choice

As I have said before regarding the price, since these things have been on sale all that has happend is that another $1000 plus has been added on to the price because its something new and alot of it Is people wanting to be the first in the club to Own/Have one and with some it's because they are trying to get better at shooting, I have seen both examples at differant gun clubs,

I've seen guys who were fairly resonable shots spend over $1200 on a .22 getting work done on it and fitting a 6-$700 Leupold scope on it and yet someone with a $150 Rifle and a $65 scope win the shoot,
My point is an Aston Martin is not going to turn anyone in to James Bond,
And no mater what you spend is not going to help, its like other people have said here already, IT's what you prefer and how you put your particular skills/scope to work.

john
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  #182  
Old 03-15-2013, 10:52 AM
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Re: First Focal Plane Vs. Second Focal Plane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broz View Post
Interesting things I am reading. Seems some FFP users admittedly prefer a tapered crosshair that directs their eye to the finer aim point at the cross, and also like a reticle with an open center. But yet they also tell of how they prefer to hold off for wind rather than dial and use the center where these center reticle features reside.


Also, it should be said that just because you dial for an average wind does not in any way mean you need to "wait for the same wind" to fire. I have taken many spotter calls with a left or right hold after dialing in for the average wind. In fact this was used a lot in the advanced Long Range course at Defensive Edge.

Jeff
Hi Jeff,

For me its not about preferring a reticle that directs my eye to the finer center. It is about their work in trying to balance the positives and negatives of a shooting system that I like. The truth is there is no free lunch in anything. When you gain a few features you like there will almost always be something you have to give up. It is not different with scopes. Like you have stated many times one of the positives for SFP is thin reticle subtentions for LR precision aiming. By design this is easier to accomplish in SFP compared to FFP. What I like about the G2 or the concept of a small open center is that it is an attempt to add one of the features most liked by SFP users into an FFP scope. Thus they are trying to come up with a "best of both worlds concept".

This is similar to USO and other manfs that are trying to use dual plane reticles to accomplish the best of both. Again for me it is all about finding something that fits with my style of shooting and the further the FFP scopes get toward adding some of the beneficial qualities of SFP, the happier I will be because I prefer the FFP concept in general. Now they aren't ever going to make the perfect blend for some guys. For instance I know you also like the fact that SFP scopes increase the target size in relation to the reticle. Well by optical design FFP will never be able to do that part but they can work on the reticle thickness part and I think they have done a nice job with it. At the end of the day guys still get to choose what feature set is best for them.

Regarding using the reticle for holdover. IMO, That is why the reticle is so great, for my style of shooting. If you are shooting at the longer distances you can use the thinner center cross hair for finer aiming. The thinner center cross of the G2 reticle extends 1 mil out which covers the majority of my holds. But even the thicker part of the reticle is .05 Mil or .17 MOA so it isn't too thick to perfectly center punch the vitals of any big game animal I hunt. But for closer shots the holdover concept is fine too because you don't need as fine of an aim point. My bigger point in bringing up the "thin center" concept in the G2 was for guys that like to dial for elevation and for wind for their LR shots but have been thinking they may want to try using the reticle for holdover for the closer range stuff and like the FFP concept, well this would be about the ideal scope to tryout.

Like I mentioned, I realize there are "way-arounds" for dialing wind. I just didn't like it. I am sure I could have got used to it but found something that works better for me. Who knows, if I ever get into the ELR game maybe I will even find it necessary to change but for my style now I wouldn't change anything. I am comfortable and deadly!

Scot E.
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