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Extreme Long Range Shooting

 
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  #1  
Old 08-31-2005, 03:51 AM
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Location: Manitoba, Canada
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Extreme Long Range Shooting

Good gentle sirs and ladies,

We were talking around the fire the other night and this topic came up.

For my edification, if I wished to build a super long range rifle, for shots, at targets & gongs, to 3000+M and not using the .50 BMG what would you suggest. We don’t have .50 BMG guns around here in Canada so I’ve only shot the 1000M with one a couple of times in the US. The major reason for suggesting this thread

Some have been using .338/378 etc. to 2000M...Would using a larger case get me the range and power necessary? I have seen a .338/416 Sniper in the wildcat tables...Would using a .404, .465 or .505 case work out? It would probably have to be necked down to .35 or .37 to carry that distance or could I go to a .30, .31 or .33...or the other route and have to go up?

Weatherby and Dakota proprietary rounds are just necked down big bore brass and I thought that I could maybe work up something that would be cool to shoot.

I’d build it on a super heavy class rifle, probably 34 or 36” barrel maybe all the way to 40", BAT action. And weigh in about the 20KG/45lb range.

I am aware of Cheyenne Tactical cartridges, but I want something really unique, different, weird, odd, whatever!

Where am I going to shoot? My uncle’s farm is 5½ sections in length by 3 in width, which is 5 ½ X 3 miles long which I believe is 8.9 KM. That’s 10,500 acres on the Saskatchewan Manitoba border area in Canada.

If you get up high enough (top of the grain elevator) you can see the end from the beginning. Dead flat, a few trees in the way, my wife calls it pancake land.

Can’t shoot from the elevator, something about the explosive quality of grain dust irks my uncle. Will probably build a shooting platform on the top of the barn to give us enough height to see over the scrub bush.

I made a clean kill at 1005M on a wild boar and credited with hits at 650, 700 & 800M.

We have been shooting some 1000 & 1200M targets with a 6.5X 284 and 1500M with both a .338/378 and a .300/378 (it isn’t that good at 1500). Nothing to brag about or win any tournaments with but all on the paper and alot in the black. Nothing like David Tubb’s perfect scores. But have only just started to get serious about long range.

Will try to get a 2000, 2500 and 3000 yd/M target butts set up but have only to 1500 now. It takes a lot of time to go and change targets. The sheet of boiler plate that we set up sounds real nice after about a 5 or 6 second delay.

Long range hunting forum had a guy shooting a woodchuck at 2500+ and there have been articles in the varmint & rifle mags about guys building for 2500 and 3000 using high rise scope mounts (8, 10, 12” above bore) and hitting the gong at that distance.

VHA has categories for 1000 & 1500 kills on Prairie Dogs.

How long ago did scoped 1000 yard shooting events really come about. Are they starting to get passé? What with 10 shots into 5" and less!

Clifford "Skip" Talbot, deceased July 1st, founded the 50 Caliber Shooters Assn in 1985.

Just wanted to see if it could be done...I know that .50 BMG goes subsonic at about 2500M and that causes problems onto its own.

Any suggestions, advice would be greatly appreciated.

Also posted at Long Range Target Shooting & Nation of Rifleman

Thank you in advance

SeekHer

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  #2  
Old 08-31-2005, 05:55 AM
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Location: Montréal, Canada
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Re: Extreme Long Range Shooting

actually we do have .50bmg. PGW makes one
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  #3  
Old 08-31-2005, 07:11 AM
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Re: Extreme Long Range Shooting

SeekHer2,

First off welcome to LRH.

TO be honest, there are cartridges out there today that are the full equal to the old 50 BMG as far as extreme range ballistics.

When trying to get things done at 1000 yards, you can use any modern high performance round with a quality bullet to be honest. Even rounds like the 6mm wildcats and as you stated the 6.5mm-284 produce great results at this range as do a host of other rounds.

When you bump up to 1500 yards, the selection of usible cartridges narrows dramatically. Another issue, at these ranges, the bullet itself are extremely important in consistant performance. At 1000 yards, bullets with BCs in the .5 to .6 range perform very well. At 1500 yards this number really needs to be well over .6 and preferrably as high as you can possibly get it accurately.

This results in the bullet doing alot of the ballistic work for you instead of needed shear horsepower to drive a lower BC bullet out to these ranges. That practice simply does not work at 1500 yards.

When you push things to 2000 yards, most bullets are not effective at this range as they drop out of supersonic flight before they reach this range. In most cases, this destroys the stability and consistancy of the bullet flight as it passes from super sonic to sub sonic velocities. There are a few bullet designs that handle this better then others but most are effected to some degree by this transition.

At 2K, not only do you want high velocity but you also NEED a very high BC bullet. I personally feel it needs to be in the mid .7 range or higher for 2000 yard shooting.

At 2500 yards your getting on the fringes of any rounds performance levels. There are instances where shooters are getting results at extreme range with very small rounds such as the 308. I personally have never experienced this at these ranges and would recommend much more if a round for this type of shooting. THis range is about the limits of where I have tested rifles. I have used my 270 AM at near this range and consistancy was still very impressive but this is with a 169.5 gr ULD RBBT Wildcat Bullet(bc .740 from drop chart development) launched at near 3500 fps.

I have also tested at this range with my 338 Kahn(338-378 Imp) with the 300 gr ULD RBBT and the 300 gr SMK bullet loaded to 3100 fps as well as with my 50 BMG with the 750 gr A-Max loaded to 2750 fps. All performed well but I will say that the higher velocity of the 270 really aided in extreme range velocity levels.

I am designing a round as we speak that is designed to do exactly what you want to do. It is my 338 Allen Magnum and is based on the 408 Chey Tac case with the case design dramatically modified for increased case capacity. The standard 338-408 will get 3400 fps with the 300 gr SMK in a 35" barrel. I am looking to break the 3500 fps level with this bullet weight but more importantly, I am looking to drive the 350 gr ULD RBBT wildcat to 3300 fps. THis bullet matches most 50 cal bullets in BC and will have a 500-600 fps velocity advantage over the BMG.

I feel 3000 yard consistancy will be easily possible with this round. THe rifle will be based on a BAT 10" receiver, 40" Lilja 1.750" straight cylinder barrel and a McMillan Heavy 50 BR stock.

If I were you I would look into a big 338. Richard Graves, owner of Wildcat Bullets is Alberta so shipping these big 350 gr pills should not be a problem at all.

Just make sure you use a parent case that will handle high pressure. Many of the big bore african big game cases are designed for 40,000 psi and thats about it. This will not cut it for what you want to do. THis is why I decided to use the 408 case as it will easily handle up to 70,000 psi in pressure.

There is nothing wrong with the 378 or 416 based wildcats either. The biggest issue is bullets used. They have to do most of the work for you at these ranges so don't think velocity alone will get you where you want to go because it simply will not work.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)
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  #4  
Old 08-31-2005, 07:43 AM
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Re: Extreme Long Range Shooting

I feel the same as Kirby i think -- to have any consistency past 2000yds and energy to boot, you need a minumum of 338/408

if not a straight 408 or 408Imp.

to really excel at 3k i would be using a 408 personally.


O, and to answer your Q:
"How long ago did scoped 1000 yard shooting events really come about. Are they starting to get passé? What with 10 shots into 5" and less! "

about 1967 the Williamsport 1KBR Club was formed, then it didnt really catch on further till 1992 i dont believe.

passe...hell no, 10 shots in 5" does NOT happen too many times in one year. My guess is the average for williamsport which has the most shooters of any club will be about 1 dozen groups under 5" heavy AND light gun -- both 10-shots -- that is 0.5% or less of the total groups fired counting shootoffs.

YMMV,
JB
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  #5  
Old 08-31-2005, 09:06 PM
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Re: Extreme Long Range Shooting

SeekHer2,
I agree with everything that fiftydriver and jr100%bs said,but to add to it ,how will you accurately range that distance ??? how will you shoot through the mirage at that distance ??? how will you spot a shot at that distance ??? where will you find a target to shoot at this distance??? will Mother Nature cooperate with wind ,rain ,temp.etc ??? it is not as easy as it sounds. I made my longest kill ever on a rockchuck at 2144yds about 1 month ago with the MOAG (338 Lapua Mag Imp) with 300gr SMK's.
I guess what I'm saying is that it takes more than a fire side BBQ and a big stick to go to 3K. you need mass equiptment good friends (and family) dedicated to a common goal combined with cooperation from mother nature a lot of luck and a bit of long range experience.
Oh and yes a case the size of a 408 Chey Tac does not hurt.
UB
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  #6  
Old 08-31-2005, 09:19 PM
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Re: Extreme Long Range Shooting

I am currenly having a 338 lupa Magnum Improved built. It will be built on a BAT 10", 36" Lilja 1.750 at the muzzel w/brake, Mcmillan 50 HBR with lead added to rear, Jewell trigger, ect, and weigh in at around 65lbs. It will be able to shoot a 300grn MK out of 36" barrel between 3100 to 3200 fps, if I want it to. However, from what I am hearing and reading, it is better to stay in the 2900 fps to 3000 fps range. Accuracy is much better at these velocities. I would go with a 338 lupa magnum in an Improved version. Good luck, and let us know what you decide on. Wildcat.
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  #7  
Old 09-01-2005, 08:25 AM
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Re: Extreme Long Range Shooting

[ QUOTE ]
SeekHer2,
I agree with everything that fiftydriver and jr100%bs said,but to add to it...

[/ QUOTE ]

Classy dig there uncle B...that is one to be proud of [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
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