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Dialing or Hold Over?????

 
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  #22  
Old 03-20-2008, 09:18 PM
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Video's

Hey John. Glad to see you on the board. I have purchased all of your video's and I think they are great. I miss seeing you on The Best Of The West program. Hope you return to the show when you have more free time.
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  #23  
Old 03-20-2008, 09:54 PM
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GG,

With the standard Mil dot reticle, I would agree with your comments about the reticle covering up to much of the target, especially on small targets.

That is not the case with the TMR and it will not be the case with the NP-R1 FFP when it gets here.

The reference lines on the TMR reticle set on any power setting cover the same area basically as the 4.5-14 TMR SFP does on 14x.

I have shot Pronghorns out to 730 yards and never had any impression that the reticle was covering to much of the target, in fact, they worked perfectly well and allowed me to take precision shots.

I have also taken rockchucks out to 1250 yards with the Weaver 4.5-14 FFP and again, had plenty of fur around the mil dots even at that range on 14x.

This arguement is a common one but in fact is really not an issue. Possibly in some varmint hunting it could be, for big game hunting, I can not imagine a situation or a big game animal that the FFP scopes would not perform just as well as a SFP scope. I supose its the perception of this problem that makes many feel this way. First perception is that the reticle does increase in size, as mentioned, that is incorrect.

As far as scope turrets wearing out, my comments were in reference to the weaver tactical. And I also commented that it would not last like the Leupold and NF adjustments. I said if you want to dial up, the Leuy is great, the NF is even better. In my opinion the Weavers are not up to the challange of alot of dialing up and down on the turrets. That was my only point, not that all turrets will wear out. If you want to dial up, you need a scope designed for it and in my opinion the Weaver will not stand up to a long life of cranking the knobs.

Kirby Allen(50)
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #24  
Old 03-20-2008, 10:48 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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Goodgrouper,

I donít know if you are serious but I guess I will give you the benefit of the doubt and explain how the custom Drop Compensating Turrets work as it is a very different system than a BDC reticle.

If you are shooting at an odd range, letís say 823yds and the DCT on the gun had 4 clicks between 800 and 850 it is simple matter to figure out that each click is equal to 12.5yds and either dial up 2 clicks from 800 or down 2 clicks from 850. Seems simple and in practice it is.

As to the speed issue the custom DCT is by far the fastest method of getting the rifle properly zeroed for the shot. When used properly (as explained in depth in the video) nothing is lost in precision.

In my experience the larger the horns, the less time for the shot. Just because a group of cow elk stand on a hillside and give you all day does not mean a 7 yr old herd bull will let you mess around with a PDA and other assorted gadgets. The name of the game is getting the right zero on the gun in the fastest method possible if you plan on using it under real hunting conditions.

I do use my custom reticle for Windage holds as it is very easy to break into ľ MOA.

The problem with dialing wind is the changing nature of the compensation and how easy it is to dial the wrong direction under real pressure.

One other thing is right handed shooters (most of us) can not get to the windage turret without breaking the shooting position and also cannot see the dial when we are on the gun. If you have to break your position every time you need to change your windage hold and you cannot easily see how much wind you have on the gun you will get behind the conditions in a tough situation.

Also target turrets and saddle scabbards and mules are not the best mix. While you might get away with a windage target turret on a truck gun it is a real pain if you ever plan on hunting far from the roads.

As to my opinion (if any one cares) on FFP vs SFP reticles I never could get used to the reticle changing size. For me it is more of an issue of use under low light. I designed my reticle to function under any legal shooting light and if the reticle gets thinner when you back of the zoom it can be hard to find.

As to mirage, my custom scopes are built on the 4.5- 14 Leupold and I have never had a problem at 14x.

Rem300ultra,

Thanks, but donít expect to see me on The Best of the West except for the reruns.
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  #25  
Old 03-21-2008, 12:11 AM
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Kirby,
Sounds like the new reticles in FFP scopes coming out will be a good thing for you and others. And I agree with you on the Weavers. A few guys in our benchrest circuit around here use them for point blank range and I have overheard some of them commenting that they can't dial up to 200 yards from 100 reliably. That is REALLY not going to work for long range!


John,
Thanks for your response.
I was serious about the DCT method being like the reticle method. As I said earlier, they both rely on predetermined lines to represent yardages for certain trajectories. Only difference I see is that the one has the lines on the reticle and the other has the lines on a turret.
That being said, you have had success with them as has Kirby with the reticle system. I know I wouldn't want to be behind either of your guy's crosshairs. But for me, true calculation in MOA (or more correctly IPHY) for each shot is mechanically and physically the most precise method across all conditions, angles, locations, and circumstances. For example, you have a custom turret made for such and such ballistic coefficient at such and such speed at such and such elevation. Some guys do the same with custom reticles. Now, I have worn out enough barrels to know that the bc of a chosen bullet doesn't stay the same throughout the barrel's life. What starts out high ends up being less when the old dreaded dry lakebed takes over the barrel's throat. To make matters worse, conditions, wind direction, and varying lots of the same bullet also add to the bc of the bullet changing. An 850 yard line, subtend, or yardage marker on a turret will not ALWAYS and forever be the true 850 yard POI. However, throughout the life of the barrel, I can always re-measure bc with two chronographs, re-check drops to confirm my calculations, and factor these into my ballistic program on my PDA for a new, true, on the spot calculation in MOA for the very shot I am about to take.

Also, the DCT method gets further off when changing elevations. This can be solved with having multiple bodies made for the turret and attaching the one you need for the elevation you are at. But this becomes more of a hassle than any PDA in my opinion. Now, I know for those who hunt in the same place every year or for those who live in the East, elevation changes are not a consideration. But they are for me as I hunt from 2000 feet up to 12,000 feet. ANd I hunt everything from moose to ground mice so a slight difference in elevation change DOES matter. If all you hunt is deer, a 1000 foot elevation change for our 850 yard example isn't going to make you miss (although it will still hit higher or lower than wanted) so that argument is repetitive.

Next thing is angle. You have already told us how you compensate for this and I agree it can work and your method works better than the reticle compensating method for sure. However, when ranges start getting REALLY out there, the gap inbetween the lines becomes more crucial and there WONT be a line for it or a click for it all the time. But again, unless you are hunting past say 1300 yards or so, this is a small issue.

And the last thing is the speed issue. I admitted already that the reticle compensater method is faster. And I admit the DCT is also fast. However, as I already mentioned, once one gets used to dialing in MOA, it is only marginally slower than the reticle. The DCT is easier for beginners to pick up on I admit, but once they learn MOA, they can do it fast too. Afterall, it is still dialing to a number-it's just that the number represents something different. ANd once one learns how to dial in MOA instead of using a reticle or DCT, one can transfer that ability to all of his other scopes. No need to spend thousands of dollars retrofitting existing scopes or replacing them with scopes that have different reticles. The industry standard for calibration of scopes is MOA so that works out nice. We might as well use that as an advantage.

Again, it's good to see all the options available to the shooter typed here in this one thread. And it's good we can all choose a method without slandering each other like they do over on lesser sites. I can remember when a thread similiar to this one got started on accurate reloader awhile back and it turned into a nightmare. Just goes to show the quality of people we have here.

By the way, sorry to hear about the Best of the West shows. They were the only hunting show I could watch. It was nice to see someone in the industry filming things east of the Mississippi River and filming things that don't gobble or eat from a feeder. ANd to film the long range kills was icing on the cake. I swear if I watch one more dufus stick a gobbler at 15 yards in Tennessee, I'm gonna puke!
Good shooting.
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Last edited by goodgrouper; 03-21-2008 at 12:30 AM.
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  #26  
Old 03-21-2008, 03:38 PM
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GG,

Yes, the Weavers are very limited in vertical adjustment range. You really have to be careful when you set one up. On a custom rifle, its not that big of a deal because the barrel threads are true or trued and the receiver and barrel bore are on the same basical axial plain so you can use more MOA in actual adjustment then chasing a barrel that is pointed the wrong way!!!

I have seen this in several occasions where most of the vertical adjustment was used just getting a Weaver Tactical zeroed at 100 yards.

I generally use them on 20 moa rails, you can not use them on 40 moa rails.

I have also seen issues with guys using them on factory rifles with rail bases and the lack of ability to adjust for windage when zeroing with factory rifles. The more windage you have to adjust into one of these, the less vertical adjustment you have.

Simply put, you need to do everything possible to keep these scopes zeroed as close to their mechanical center as possible as there is not alot of room for error.

That said, when sighted in perfectly, for example with my 270 and the 169.5 gr ULD RBBT loaded to 3350 fps, you can zero at 250 yards and the bottom post on the mil dot reticle will be dead on at 1050 yards. Again, thats for a given elevation range and given temp range. Stay in those perameters and they work amazingly well.

Kirby Allen(50)
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #27  
Old 03-21-2008, 04:35 PM
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Posts: 130
Turkey Hunting

By the way, sorry to hear about the Best of the West shows. They were the only hunting show I could watch. It was nice to see someone in the industry filming things east of the Mississippi River and filming things that don't gobble or eat from a feeder. ANd to film the long range kills was icing on the cake. I swear if I watch one more dufus stick a gobbler at 15 yards in Tennessee, I'm gonna puke!
Good shooting.

Goodgrouper:
I agree with you on the Best Of The West shows and on the gobblers.
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  #28  
Old 03-23-2008, 10:11 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7
Hey guys, I am just getting into this Long range hunting (Long range to me is over 600yds) I am currently having a rifle built just for hunting one ore two particular areas where our shooting will be in the 1000yd mark. After reading these post about dialing vs holdover I ask you what would be a good scope setup for someone that is easy to learn and use. I am considering a NF 5-5x22x56mm with NPR1 Reticule. Do the lines on that scope cover to much of a deer, or elk at 1000yds for a precision shot? All I have used in the past is a leupold 4-5x14 with fine crosshairs and I have taken Blacktail deer here in oregon out to 540yds. I have looked through the NF at Sportmans Wharehouse and the lines look large to me, Is that just because I am no used to them?
Any insight that you guys could offer would be awesome!
Thank you
J.P.
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