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Dialing or Hold Over?????

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Unread 03-19-2008, 10:29 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Utah
Posts: 1,375

The need for speed is a great point. We have all the time in the world while practicing.

I think the flaw with the hold over comes when you have to hold for both elevation and windage. In this case, you're completely off a reticle. Sure, you can hold close.

Let's analyse the time difference in a hold over vs turning a knob. When I dial, I set up the rifle, range, dial elevation, than look at wind. I will than dial or hold off for wind, depending on how much wind. Do I spend any more time dialing the knobs than you do counting dots or hash marks? Probably a little. I won't deny the tactical advantage of having a reticle you can hold off with, knowing it, and being able to get a shot in the air right now. Good stuff to know. However, 90% of the time, I'd much rather turn the knob.

Buffalobob showed a photo of a handy turret wrap. This would eliminate one step (looking at your chart), while leaving your regular numbers visible and available for when you need more accuracy. I think this would be a great way to speed things up.

Perhaps you're saying the hold over is quicker because Shawn and GG use PDA's. I believe both of them carry charts too ( I think we all do). And would use the chart if time were short.

Anyway, it's a good topic. I'm glad somebody weighed in with another opinion.
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Unread 03-19-2008, 11:04 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: bismarck ND
Posts: 406
i would agree with you only for the fact that if i were shooting a gun that shoots 300 grain smk and isnt affected by the wind. i am personally shooting a 7mm with a 168 berger, but in a different class as your 338. for people shooting guns in the same caliber i would say that wind wont affect you that much. when you are shooting at 1000 yards and the wind shift from 3-5 and back and fourth from left to right, that missle that you are shooting will be affected way less than my 7mm. so my conclussion is that it depends on what you are shooting. and i feel that the dial works for me.

do what works for you.

and i am not trying to put a challange out there to you or gg. i know that i would get my butt kicked.....
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Unread 03-19-2008, 11:38 AM
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 2,833
I use both.
A MOA reticle Like Holland's ART for the shorter shots under 500-600 yards and then turrets for longer shots.
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Unread 03-19-2008, 01:20 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Alaska
Posts: 4,895
I use the reticle for holdovers and wind. I use it for holdunders also. I usually sight in for about 450 yds on the crosshair and develop a holdover / holdunder chart for elevation under the conditions I expect to be hunting in. My mil-dot reticle includes 1/2 mil increments and when set on 18X, I have 2 moa between each increment on the reticle. If the scope only has 1 mil increments on the crosshair there are fewer hash marks and more estimation between the available lines is required. With the 1/2 mil increments and an accurate drop chart, I'm comfortable out to 900-1000 yds with a 7mm RM. I develop my drop chart to provide holdovers about every 30 yds, including angled shots from 15 degree elevation up to 45 degrees of elevation in 5 degree angle increments. I use an Excel program to develop the charts which allows me to print charts for differing elevations and conditions pretty conveniently. This chart is printed out landscape on weatherproof paper from a color laser printer. The paper is about 8 1/2x11" - larger than can be taped on the side of the stock. Holdunders are in green ink. Holdovers in red ink. I have a smaller chart on the side of the stock that just covers every 100 yd distance but depend on the larger carry-in-the-pocket chart.

One comfort I have in this method is that I don't have to trust the scope adjustments or worry about turning the knobs correctly.
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Unread 03-19-2008, 03:57 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vegas
Posts: 310
Some of the guys on this thread will forget more about long range shooting than i will ever know, but here's my 2 cents anyway. I have and use both, and think they both have their place. The holdover dots are nice if you are shooting quick and at different distances like shooting prairie dogs, or predator hunting. You don't have to mess with your scope if you go from 200 yards to 800. But for spot and stalk or ambush applications I like the dials. Especially at the longer distances. I killed a Coues deer a few years back when i had dots in my deer rifle and with the vertical correction for distance, and horizontal correction for wind, neither crosshair was touching the deer. This made the shot more difficult IMO as i had to make imaginary lines and approximate where they intersected. With the dial, even if i decide to hold for the wind, I can at least have one line of my crosshair on the deer. To me, it just feels better to have the crosshairs on the animal. Throw in the fact that atmospheric conditions be come more and more important the farther the distance - it seems to me the farther the shot the more of an advantage the dial becomes. Just my experience.
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Unread 03-19-2008, 05:13 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: on the rifle range in Utah
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Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
I can assure GG that if I was able to set my rifles up in his conditions, he would not be able to throw any kinks into my rifles out to 1000 yards and I could engage targets and get a shot off MUCH faster then he would be able to with dial up, especially if we were alone hunting and did not have someone helping get set up.

That is not a challange to GG in any way. but it is the trueth and while I may not be quite as precise in shot placement, all the bullets would still be in the vitals and the determining factor would be wind drift more then vertical error in shot placement.

Good Topic, I am sure it will get warmed up!!!!

Kirby Allen(50)
My little "kink" as Kirby puts it is this: For ballistic reticles to work, the power level must be on a certain setting. Ok, so here's the mean thing I do to my students. I take them up into the mountains here from 8000 to 10,000 feet to do some shooting. The reason for this is because of the differences in mirage. As many of you know, mirage is simply the varying densities of air masses made apparent as sunlight transfers through them. Well, at 10,000 feet, the air is pretty thin and it cools off and heats up very quickly causing huge image disruption and some pretty nasty mirage and the only way to make it bearable sometimes is to turn the power down on your scope. Besides causing a blurred image, the mirage can also affect the parallax setting on your scope. So if you have a reticle that depends on power settings to work, you are forced to use a power that is either too much or too little to make the shot. This problem is unavoidable if you use drop reticles. Students often find themselves wanting to increase the power to see a smaller target, but can't becuase their reticle won't let them. Or they see too much mirage and feel the need to reduce the power but can't because of the reticle problem again.

Now, throw in a little angle AND mirage and the drop reticles become even more of a burden. A 27 degree angle for example changes which subtend to use and more than likely it will calculate to a very odd yardage. How many reticles have subtends for 872 yards exactly? So you go to your 850 line and hold a little high. Only problem is how much higher and how can you visually represent the difference accurately at that range? I have several sized gongs I put out at varying distance and ask people how big are they. Guys who can tell you rack size of a deer to within half inch at half mile say, "umm geee, maybe a 20" gong and maybe it's 800 yards away". Then they are shocked when I tell them the gong is actually 10" gong and it is 500 yards away. The point is that no matter how good you are at guessing measurements, you're still just guessing. I have yet to meet anyone who can tell me what 8" looks like over or under their subtend line at great distance. Or 6" or 4" or whatever. The bottom line is that mirage, angle, and human guestimations WILL throw a fly in the ointment of reticle aiming no matter if you're Kirby, Holland, Burns, or any of the other good shooters who use this method.

Now, Kirby and I are buddies and we can jab each other a little because of this fact. But I'm not saying he is wrong. He simply uses a method sometimes that by pure mechanics of physics cannot and will not work every time. I do agree with him however, that reticle aiming is faster. Especially for multiple targets at varying distances. But unless your hunting people like the military, I don't see where this will help you. In a dog town, I suppose it would be faster to use a reticle, but it's a dog town. The dogs aren't going anywhere and you have plenty of time (and usually plenty of ammo!) so why not dial? In a big game situation (unless your culling out the herd) quicker rarely is better. If my deer is moving, I'm not shooting at it anyway. I usually have all the time in the world to adjust a scope for one single target and lie in ambush. And when my target does come out, I can zoom my scope in or take it out as I please to make the shot a comfortable one.
And the more you practice dialing, the faster you get at it. I'll bet I could engage multiple targets at varying distances nearly as fast as a reticle aimer could. Fast enough for real world situations anyways save hunting humans on the attack.

This is just my view of the matter and I sure am not going to stop anyone from using a reticle to do their compensating. But I have made a few people try something else.
Find it
Range it
Click it
Pull it
Dump it

If it's not far, it's boring.
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Unread 03-19-2008, 07:30 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 2,598
Why won't a MOA Reticle work under all conditions? Especialy when combined with a little dialing to make it exact...
range it,check the wind, dial in correction, aim and only one shot
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