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delemma...what 338 chambered rifle to start with?

 
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  #22  
Old 01-07-2004, 10:37 AM
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Re: delemma...what 338 chambered rifle to start with?

speaking of strong actions....how is the 1917 enfield action for these rounds? from what I hear the Remington/winchester versions of this action are very strong. seems like this would be an affordable way.

I know it takes some work to make this action usable but how much work is needed in making a custom action usable? I have no idea as to how "finished" a custom action comes from the manufacturer.
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  #23  
Old 01-07-2004, 01:38 PM
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Re: delemma...what 338 chambered rifle to start with?

I understand your points DC, and $400-700 for a trued and converted action and bolt is a chunk of a nice big custom action, but like you guys say, for a drag around field rifle, the tight tolerance customs may, or may not be the right choice, just depend on the crap you go through. If you already have a 700 and just want to open it up and rechamber, the price is obviously considerably less than a custom action.

I for one don't push my loads up to 75-80k psi, but maybe rarely during load development if pressure climbs unexpectedly rapidly at the top, and still I've never blown a primer at 80k psi. I would imagine I'm damn close, and may have just been lucky too. I do know the 700's lugs will handle that pressure in the event it's hit, but I will make a point for you you haven't made, and it might be fair to say if you did comprimise the case and gas was released, you might find small pieces of the Sako extractor could be let out the right raceway back toward you, no guarantee, but no guarantee it wouldn't... that's one thing the Savage offers proection against.

At any rate, pressure is pressure, reguardless of powder charge used, and casehead size on the cases are the same, thrust will be identical on the big 460 WBY with 500's if pressure is the same.

Remember, at a certain pressure, the brass will begin to under go plastic deformation and begin to squeeze into every opening available at the rear, usually at 70-75k psi it can be seen pretty vividly. 75-80k psi is a range that just ruins brass, but also you begin to run the risk of escaping gas in your face through the primer and weak spots at the rear of the case... A full case rupture on an M1-A I had, which destroyed the action, bolt, stock and op rod, clip, etc... let me know it's not a fun experience. Pressure was 81k psi when that happened using an unknown powder.

At less than 70k psi the big Weatherby cases will start to expand rapidly on the belt and finally they will not chamber, as this area cannot be sized back down. On the beltless Rigby case, this casehead expansion causes the brass to expand just in front of the web and can be sized back down, but only to a point a little better than the belted version... once the casehead expands to equal the chamber ID, your through using those cases, as the die will NOT size the web, or casehead down, only in front of it.

If you don't keep the pressure down to the point you're only getting .0005", ya 5 ten thou expansion or less on the belt on the second firing of virgin brass, with a load any hotter than that, the case will KEEP growing in dia across the web at that rate and you'll end up with case too tight to chamber in very short order. At anything much over 70k psi, you can't ever keep this from happening the pressure is just too great. Loosening primer pockets are simply a symptom of this excessive casehead expansion begining to happen. At 65-70k psi, the casehead will expand on virgin brass, but then will not expand any further, and primer pockets will not open up either. The softer the brass, and or the the thinner the web, the less pressure the casehead will handle and stay put and not expand further beyond the initial expansion.

The point is, the brass is the weakest link by far, not the action here. I practice with the brass I hunt with, so longevity does matter to me. Darryl runs his like a top fuel dragster, one trip and that's all that matters, top speed is primary, everything else comes at a higher price beacuse it's secondary.

For me, brass is like a partner which I spend a lot of time on, get to know and come to depend on, and I hate to throw it away, I don't care what I paid for it either. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
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  #24  
Old 01-07-2004, 03:11 PM
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Re: delemma...what 338 chambered rifle to start with?

Brent

You said;_______________________________
Darryl runs his like a top fuel dragster, one trip and that's all that matters, top speed is primary, everything else comes at a higher price beacuse it's secondary.
___________________________________________

Your close on that statement.
It's "two trips" or two loads from my big cases when I'm on an Ultra Longrange hunt to Colorado and load the heavy load. 7 loadings with the lighter load. That means I can get two season out of the same cases using the top velocity load. A small price to pay on trips like as we have had over the years. Hunting brass is made to be replaced as far as I'm concerned.

My hunting loads are all made for speed and "decent" accuracy so I can push the heavy bullets such as the 240gr 30 cals and the 300 gr 338s to their "top" killing potential .
Has worked for us for "many" years now and I see no reason to change.

When going to 1000 yard compititions with any other standard or imp mag chambering or standard cases, my loads are loaded way down so the brass will last most of the season.

To each his own on this topic.
I'll keep shooting my customs with big cases and you can continue to use the Remingtons. Good Luck though. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] I've seen 6 actions (Rems and 70 Winchesters) blown by "one" fellow who use to "really" push the velocity envelope. His name was Herb Miller and he died in a fire several years ago.
They blew into pieces not just a lock up situation and he lived through 6 of these happenings.

Later
DC [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-07-2004: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
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  #25  
Old 01-07-2004, 03:27 PM
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Re: delemma...what 338 chambered rifle to start with?

Dr John

The customs are usually finished from the manufacturer and need nothing but your choice of triggers.

Bat, Nesika, Hall "G" and Geskie actions are very desireable for the big cases such as the 338/378 Weatherby, 338/416 Rigby Imp or any magnum cartridge for that matter.
There are other customs that are very good also.

Later
DC
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  #26  
Old 01-07-2004, 04:38 PM
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Re: delemma...what 338 chambered rifle to start with?

Point wasn't you only get one loading, most Top Fuel motors might too, they just don't risk it and tear 'em down after each run just in case. Of course things are changed during this tear down, but a second run might be possible if they weren't.

.....

In all the discussions we've had in the last couple years on this very subject, it's funny you've never mentioned this before, or even in your first post here... even when I asked about that very thing.

This, and the guy is now dead and can't be spoken to.... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ 01-08-2004: Message edited by: Brent ]
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  #27  
Old 01-08-2004, 08:58 AM
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Re: delemma...what 338 chambered rifle to start with?

Brent

Are you trying to start someting "again" concerning my truthfulnes? Over the years I have said nothing but the truth on this or any forum regardless of what "you" think. If you can't accept what I say as the truth, well, you know the old saying.

I had forgot about Herb Miller and his experiments and quest for the highest velocity he could get. Herb was one of a kind.
He was one who would not just go up 1 or 1/2 a grain at a time and it caught up with him on 6 occasions before the old boy died.
He was well known at Williamsport and also a steel worker who died in a fire at his home in Brockway, PA a few years back.

I gave the mans name and if you want to call Ray Romain, the gunsmith, (814-265-1948) he will give the details about Herb Miller who he also knew quite well.

The last time he blew an action he came to the range with a face full of fresh pock marks from a rifle blowing up and he had a picture of the rifle with him holding it and the whole side of it was gone along with the side of the stock. He even brought the rifle to show everyone.
Herb use to "brag" about blowing actions as if it was something he should do when testing high powered loads. Point was, he blew some of them with chamberings such as a 220 Swift and one I remember as a 240 Gibbs, that he told us about.
So they were "not" all big cartridges as we have been talking about. Some were however imp. magnums.
I didn't agree with his testing then and of course don't now.

Maybe you should be a bit more trustworthy in your accusations?

There are lots of things I have forgot over the years in this shooting game and some of them will surface as time goes by, just give the old brain time.

Herb was an embarresment to any rifle testing program that most try to do in a correct and safe way.

Later
DC
As an add on here---I really don't like talking about the dead and maybe that's why I had forgot or didn't want to bring it up at the time. It has been a few years now since Herb died.
Didn't see your "entire" post when you asked about it either or I would have mentioned it then.
If herb had used custom actions, I believe he may have locked them up, but the factory actions did "in fact" blow out the sides. Good thing he was at his home testing range (beside his house) and not at a public range.
These are facts Brent, check it out if you wish.

[ 01-08-2004: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
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  #28  
Old 01-08-2004, 10:11 AM
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Re: delemma...what 338 chambered rifle to start with?

xring
I do not think you will even need to rebarrel the AR30, it is worth every penny in my book. I just picked one up and it is shooting under 1/2 moa out of the box. I still like my Timberwolf more but the AR30 is such a great value I just had to have one.
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