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BEST of THE WEST?? REALLY THE BEST?

 
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  #15  
Old 11-13-2009, 01:40 PM
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Re: BEST of THE WEST?? REALLY THE BEST?

I enjoy the show a lot. They are really selling a system. IMO, by having folks that have never shot these rifles before the TV hunts does show that the system works.

I would like them to stay on the animal longer after the shot....even if they do it in high speed! I like to see how far the animal really goes assuming it is not DRT.

For you guys with a lot of long range experience I don't see the knock on the turrets!

Yes, they are designed for a certain temperature and a certain elevation, but I would rather turn the dial to a number than count clicks any day of the week!

A different temperature and elevation and instead of dialing 72 clicks for your 1,000 yard shot @ sea level you dial 66 clicks or just turn the dial to 950 yards @6000 feet .....950 yards seems like there is less of a chance for a screw up.....what am I missing?

edge.
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  #16  
Old 11-13-2009, 02:12 PM
CAM CAM is offline
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Re: BEST of THE WEST?? REALLY THE BEST?

Quote:
Originally Posted by edge View Post
I enjoy the show a lot. They are really selling a system. IMO, by having folks that have never shot these rifles before the TV hunts does show that the system works.

I would like them to stay on the animal longer after the shot....even if they do it in high speed! I like to see how far the animal really goes assuming it is not DRT.

For you guys with a lot of long range experience I don't see the knock on the turrets!

Yes, they are designed for a certain temperature and a certain elevation, but I would rather turn the dial to a number than count clicks any day of the week!

A different temperature and elevation and instead of dialing 72 clicks for your 1,000 yard shot @ sea level you dial 66 clicks or just turn the dial to 950 yards @6000 feet .....950 yards seems like there is less of a chance for a screw up.....what am I missing?

edge.
edge,
Your missing the basics! LOL J/K

You assume everybody counts clicks for one! thats just GG...J/K GG
how about now its 45 deg down hill so lets guess maybe 900???? or 875???
No matter how you slice it your guessing.
I actually like the system concept, If hunting under 600 and big game in controled enviroments.
You could also make a cheatsheet for different conditions. or wait thats not ideal!!

Or you could buy a MOA reticle and be done!! not even click anything to 1K!
Know the system inside and out and be faster than "clickin" any turret.
Go past 1K? click up 20MOA at a time why count? the turrets are marked.

I have no dog in this fight, if it works use it! you ask so thats just some info for thought.
Cam

Last edited by CAM; 11-13-2009 at 02:27 PM. Reason: changed from 1K to 600
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  #17  
Old 11-13-2009, 02:22 PM
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Re: BEST of THE WEST?? REALLY THE BEST?

I don't personally know any of the people mentioned but I believe they have done more to promote long range hunting (as a viable option) than anybody. I once made a post on a benchrest site and was (RIPPED APART) by a couple of the regulars because of my (UNETHICAL) long range hunting. When I made the post, I was simply looking for expertise because I respect those guys. I believe that there are unethical long range shooters just as there are unethical people in any walk of life. This doesn't make us all BAD! This is not a knock on ALL benchresters either. I know many are also long range hunters. Thank God that we still have the freedom to chose our sport......Rich
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  #18  
Old 11-13-2009, 02:25 PM
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Location: South of Canada and North of Wyoming
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Re: BEST of THE WEST?? REALLY THE BEST?

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by edge View Post
Yes, they are designed for a certain temperature and a certain elevation, but I would rather turn the dial to a number than count clicks any day of the week!

A different temperature and elevation and instead of dialing 72 clicks for your 1,000 yard shot @ sea level you dial 66 clicks or just turn the dial to 950 yards @6000 feet .....950 yards seems like there is less of a chance for a screw up.....what am I missing?

edge.
I would also much rather turn to a yardage than use charts/software etc., but unfortunately it's just not that simple at extreme ranges. It's a good system to 600 yds, but past that the more changes you encounter the more fudging you're gonna do, and when it comes to extreme distant shooting, fudging isn't something you should be doing. It's challanging enough, especially in a light breeze, to make a first shot hit with all the exactly correct info.

Aslo, I like the ability to try new powders and bullets. This would get very expensive getting a new turret for each combo.

I do plan on getting one for antelope hunting which is flat ground shoooting and a fairly temp stable conditions, +/- 25* usually.

Bottom line, using an over simplified system that doesn't take exact input into account increases the chance for a screw up.

Cheers,

Mark

Last edited by MontanaRifleman; 11-13-2009 at 05:46 PM.
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  #19  
Old 11-13-2009, 03:51 PM
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Re: BEST of THE WEST?? REALLY THE BEST?

Good thread guys. I see some valid points. I would like to make a few.

1) The long range system Burns was shooting back in 2006 was the same as thousands of other builders. Remington action in a McMillan stock with a leupold scope and Kenton Industries BDC. John had them put the adjustment from the European scopes which was about 1cm at 100m (basically 1/3 MOA). He also put a reticle in that provided wind hold and drop hold bars (basically a Nightforce style). Thats it. No rocket science there. Johns real talent was showing it in use and breaking ground for mainstream acceptance for Long Range Hunting.

2) Before I filed my patent application for MY compensation technology, I had maybe spoken with John a few times paintballing. I knew what the scope and system comprised of, and basically set it as the reference standard for performance.

3) My patent application covers a method for compensating for not just bullet drop, but also wind compensation. Most people don't realize how the Huskemaw scope works. There are TWO sets of numbers on the elevation turret. The first is the obvious yardage calibration, the second set (above and slightly smaller) gives the shooter the proper windage correction in MOA for a 10mph wind. Let me restate, when you dial the range, the turret tells you how much to hold for wind (assuming you can dope it!). Its a simple addition, but I can guarantee it is MY development, and NO ONE had tried to produce this kind of system before. This was a real step forward to move away from separate charts.

4) Other marginal improvements include a turret that has splines, so no slipping (leupold). And the retaining screw is simple to remove in feild with a coin or case head (no more little wrenches to keep track of). I also engineered the reticle to provide backup rangefinding WITHOUT math. Its similar to existing bracketing system with improvements and can get you ranged in beyond 500 yards. I also added a simple zero index to keep track of your turret revolutions (this is a big deal for spinning turrets).

5) My Mechanical Engineering background gives me a slightly different set of tools to work with than the average long range shooter. I designed and validated the processes and software we use to calculate trajectories and prove a Ballistic Profile. My system for building the files we use to mark our custom turrets is also proprietary and covered under my patent application.

6) Finally, while most people exagerate the effects of air density changes and incline shooting, it does take intellegent selection of cartridge and bullet and the ability to understand ballistic programs. The weakness in the BDC system is the fixed nature of the turrets trajectory. But then again, I guess its not any more fixed than printing a drop chart, paper is just a little less expensive! The question is what do we do about it, and can we "perfect" the BDC system.

Back to my patent application, I designed the system to work with a rangefinder that automatically compenstates you "ballistic range" for air density and inclination angle. We could do corriolis also, but for now it is not incorporated.

We have partnered with the top dogs in laser rangefinders, and we are incorporating my ballistic software application to perfect the BDC style system. The prototypes we have been using will readily range to beyond 2000 yards, and the targeting modes enhance the ability to get good ranges in bad conditions (antelope in rolling sagebrush). Bottom line this WILL revolutionize long range shooting. Charts and hand held computers will be antiquated, or only have application for ultra long range (beyond 1300 yards).

Do other systems work, yes. Are there thousands of long range shooters that don't use our stuff, yes. Are there cheaper ways to get there, yes! (Check out savages new long range hunter model!!!!). Did John Burns have anything to do with my education, shooting experience, or my technology, NO!

Does John currently infringe on my patent pending windage technology, YES. Without it the BDC dial system is pretty week. So the question is who is changing the face of long range hunting, and developing technology that is new and unique, and who is just good at copying what is already being done!?

Geez, what a monologue...I didn't even get into the rifle systems, stock designs, and working my butt off to build great products for our customers!
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Aaron Davidson
Product Engineer
www.gunwerks.com
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  #20  
Old 11-13-2009, 05:33 PM
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Posts: 105
Re: BEST of THE WEST?? REALLY THE BEST?

skipD
I enjoy the show, but i dont like the part of how u guys take a guy that has never shot past 300, and drop something a 800-1000yds, then make it sound like all u have to do is turn the dial and its all over with. Theres alot more that goes into shoothing those distances, then turning the dial, as u woul know.
As far as equipment goes, each there own. One comment jeremy winters made was we dont like to dial for wind, hold over is better and quicker, please explian why? Do u think we cant hold over with a night force, or make a quick adjustment with a moa rec? I wont get into why i like dialing ,over your turn to yardage style turrets. Like i said i enjoy the show keep up the good work. just my @cents
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  #21  
Old 11-13-2009, 05:37 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Utah
Posts: 1,377
Re: BEST of THE WEST?? REALLY THE BEST?

It is great to see the BDC system moving forward. The speed and simplicity of a BDC system is a real advantage in many hunting situations.

I disagree most of us are exagerating the effects of changing variables on trajectories. It is simply not to our advantage to do so. Furthermore, anyone can simply run a view variables and see the effects. It is great to see this weakness addressed. Where can we read more about your rangefinder technology? Details. Not marketing. Exactly what is considered to produce "true ballistic range"?

Perhaps a little humble would go a long ways. "My, My, My". "Average long range hunter" (came very close to calling us all stupid). Perhaps giving credit where due would go a long ways. Sure you've refined "Johns" system (with your own great ideas). Still, John established it, at least from the publics viewpoint. And now he is "infringing" on "pending"?

Just had to help with the monologue. Cheers

Last edited by grit; 11-14-2009 at 01:49 AM.
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