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BEST of THE WEST?? REALLY THE BEST?

 
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  #71  
Old 12-22-2009, 08:16 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: OK
Posts: 2,145
Re: BEST of THE WEST?? REALLY THE BEST?

GG, The BOTW ammo is good stuff from my limited experiences, and extensive experience from some of my customers feedback.

http://www.centershotrifles.com/gall...223_target.jpg

That was a test group from a brux barreled sendero for a customer in Florida. I shot 3 sighter then that group with BOTW 168 berger load. It was 13 degrees out and I shot it off a 6x6 wood block with one of my gloves laying on top of it, and my fist for a rear bag. The man that recieved that gun does not handload and shoots 3 different cartriges with BOTW ammo and reports excellent results at long range. He said that 7mm mag has produced 1/4" 100 yard groups for him on numerous occasions. I do not doubt him in the least.

I have a Huskemaw on a 7rum shooting 180 bergers at 3160fps. When I called Arron to set up the turret he told me to shoot data for 200,600,800 and if I could 1200 yards. He would then calculate the TRUE bc of that rifle bullet combination under my alt. and conditions, and then build me a turret for the alt and "standard" conditions I would be in out west. I had him make my turret for 9000 ft.

On my trip to CO this year I put my first bullets on a Mule deers shoulder at 826 yards. After zeroing the rifle at 400 the day before at camp.
Did I dial to 826?, no I compensated for a 12 degree angle by coming off one click. That is a necesary adjustment of LRH with any scope system. I shot rocks on that trip out to 950 yards, and was never off my verticle point of aim more than 2-3" basically with-in the rifles ability to group at those distances.

I was in Montana a few days in Nov. and used the same set-up at 8000 feet. A bit colder as well. I added a click for the longer shots and had no problem with hits on shots I took at rocks out to my furthest on that trip as well. Sure I could have had another turret made, but I did not see the need for ME.

I personally liked the system and the fact that wind data is on the turret with the yardage marks. Ask my CO hunting partner, He forgot his moa drop chart for his NF/300 rum set-up. Made him the designated spoter for the day.
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  #72  
Old 12-22-2009, 08:32 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: IOWA
Posts: 1,863
Re: BEST of THE WEST?? REALLY THE BEST?

Nice post, Jim.
I have been saying good things about this scope since I think the spring of '08.
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  #73  
Old 12-22-2009, 10:50 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 36
Re: BEST of THE WEST?? REALLY THE BEST?

This has been the most interesting thread I've read on the site. I always wondered about the history of BOTW and the parties within. Regardless of which side you take I think it inspires hunters to to expand their ranges thru practise and trial and error before taking on live game. I have gained knowledge from both sites and will continue to do so. I may never have the opportunity to hunt out West but I can apply the principles to the bean fields of the South. Its all about information and how you apply it. In some aspects, you leave hunting behind and step into the realm of science and technology or you combined them to reach your objective. Mine is to make a kill between 800 and a 1000yd for next season which makes for alot of practice in the spring and summer. Kudo's to both men!!
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  #74  
Old 12-23-2009, 02:13 AM
JRu JRu is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Finland
Posts: 62
Re: BEST of THE WEST?? REALLY THE BEST?

My experience is based solely on long-range competition, Finnish military ( conscript/reservist ) sniper training/ instructing and what we as sniper instructors have tested and discussed. All methods discussed are something we've applied successfully on targets up to 2200 yards. Regardless, I do have an interest in LRH so I'm trying to keep this in hunting perspective.

As far as I see it, BDC is not a black and white issue. It's just a method of transferring some data from your ballistic card to your turret for easier access. Ballistic cards will always be somewhat off at extended ranges, PDAs have the possibility of being close to spot on, given correct atmospheric data. Even PDAs will rarely be completely spot on, depending on noise due to variations in wind, mirage & refraction etc. You simply can't account for all the data out there but PDAs ( and similar handhelds ) will give you the best guess possible, often with sub-click accuracy.

A ballistic program will streamline your workflow considerably at ELR. But a BDC can be equally effective for medium ranges. Combine that with a correction card and the effective distance can be extended even further. You quickly get into the ballpark with BDC and apply a couple of clicks up or down depending on current conditions, for this you consult the correction card that outputs T+P changes as clicks or a new range to dial for. Sure, it's extra work but it can really extend your range and can be dropped out of the workflow for short to medium ranges, that for most of the people account for 90%+ of the time.

As for BOTW.

All I've seen are the Beyond Belief, How To Shoot Beyond Belief and Beyond Belief 2 DVDs as obviously any U.S. cable show isn't available in Finland.

BB1 had a huge impact on me and HTSBB only cemented that further. I didn't care much for BB2 or the current cast, the DVD has way too much of an infomercial feel to it, the guys are making statements like they have achieved something unique and novel while all this stuff has been out there in use for years. No custom stock or optic will make a shooting system the only way to enable LRH for your generic rodeo celebrity -- all that's required is poor ethics (IMHO) to put a LR novice behind the rifle and let him ride the equipment. That said, I believe the BOTW guys probably have the best intentions so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

What I did like was John's DVDs and the way he presents things. On BB1 & HTSBB, he states several times, "practice & practice & practice" , "this works for me" , "your mileage may vary" , "don't take any of this for granted but see for yourself" , "at <1K hunting ranges this is a fairly good way to go" ...

...so I just don't see what the fuss was always about, regarding his design of a LRH shooting system. He never stated his way was the only way, or, for example that BDCs are the best way to achieve LRH success. Quite the opposite in fact, he states several times his method is a compromise but for most of the time, it works extremely well for a mobile hunter using sporter weight equipment and medium calibers. And I do agree.

John, if you're reading this, I was already a long-range shooter but you sparked my interest in big game hunting and LRH. It would be an honor to shake your hand and I wish you the very best. You seem to have a very realistic approach to all this and I applaud you for it.

I only wish you'd make your Precision Hunter Journal available outside USA. :(
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  #75  
Old 12-23-2009, 07:01 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 39
Re: BEST of THE WEST?? REALLY THE BEST?

I just had Darrel’s ART reticle installed in my Leupold 4.5-14x 40 scopes. It offers 30 moa of hold over and 4 moa of hold off from center right to left. I have the long range target turrets on top of the Mark 4 scope. This setup goes for around the same price as the Huskamew. I believe this scope accommodates the best of both worlds. One can dial or use the hold over in moa. You are also not locked into one bullet for your hunting conditions for that load. You can use a drop chart or ballistic software. I think one could be happy with this setup. There are many ways to get the job done. Some people are more comfortable with other setups. I feel you should do what makes you happy. It is your rifle and your money. Ether way you can still have a lot of fun. The Best of the West
Scopes old and new seem to be very user friendly. I think one can use it very successfully for their hunting needs. As it was mentioned before as long as you set it up correctly and practice at the ranges you are comfortable and accurate at.
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  #76  
Old 12-23-2009, 11:06 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: NW MT
Posts: 2,552
Re: BEST of THE WEST?? REALLY THE BEST?

Yes that is my thoughts also, I have a mil dot luepy w/ adj turrets, it is nice to have mil or something in your scope and work at ranging, 1/2 the season conditions dont fit my lazer. I also use my business cards as cheat sheets and mark common spots I hunt w/yardage on good ranging days, certain chutes,clearcuts, etc.
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  #77  
Old 12-25-2009, 02:25 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cleburne,Texas
Posts: 141
Re: BEST of THE WEST?? REALLY THE BEST?

Just as we freeway drivers gain from Indy car technology, duck hunters get some gun handling at the skeet range and LRHs benefit from benchrest addicts favored drugs WE ALL LEARN FROM THOSE WHO TAKE THINGS BEYOND WHAT MANY WILL OR CAN DEVOTE THEIR TIME TO. LRH is really a well prepared for and range practiced sport that is under the scrutiny of the greenie liberal public and media. When Aaron or John make a presentation for general public viewing on TV they are not in competition so much with one anothers equipment as walking the knife ridge of expanding our hunting ranks while still being viewed as ethical "harvesters" of game .
When GG starts the corriolis, RH tailwind rise mineutia it tells me he has never taken the time to watch all the Utube info on the BOTW website or he would have heard Aaron's rules of thumb for accomodating these changes in PA and ^T within the limits of the single revolution turret i.e. 1/3 MOA clicks= 20MOA which approximates to 925-1050 yards with most LRH rifle sys. WIND...WIND is the real limiter of LRH and until we have either all those pretty blue, yellow , red and white wind flags and sighter shots or a hand held doppler radar windfinder the dynamic characteristics of wind limits the ethical range to about what BOTW under either John or now Aaron show on TV. If GG has ability beyond this he should take the time to put his excellence on Ytube so we can learn from his considerable background. Ytube is free. All you need is a digital video and computer with internet capability. I have watch ever thing John and Aaron have shared with me. GG please post the title of your new Ytube here so we can all pull it up to learn from...and post negative comments about
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