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Audette ladder test questions

 
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  #8  
Old 05-28-2009, 06:45 PM
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Re: Audette ladder test questions

Kirby,

To answer your question, I haven't run the same test on different days. I would expect the velocity information to line up better than the point of impact info. I put more emphasis on the velocities than the point of impacts.

I look at the results as 'areas to try' and have had very good luck when using it in that way. Another way to look at it is that the results have shown me loads NOT to use (drastic swings between increments). The ladder tests I've performed have all resulted in loads that shoot 1/2moa or better, which might not be the 'best' possible loads, they are loads that easily meet my requirements.

I expect that with a quality rifle and chronograph, I could perform a ladder test and pick a good area with just the velocity measurements. Then check the ES/SD and then see how it shoots at LR. Statistically it would probably be just as good.

When I decided to try RL-22 for the first time in my 7RM, I did a ladder using RL22/160AB. I found AND verified a load with 24 rounds using RL22 (14 shot ladder and two 5 shot groups). The velocity spread across the node added up to 14fps and the total POI spread was .5moa (average .25moa). When I verified the load at LR, it shot sub .2moa! Maybe I got lucky?

I might have found this load using other methods, but I'm sure I would have shot more rounds to do so. I had a similar experience when I worked up my first loads in a Savage 300WSM. 1/3moa load in around 20 shots!

In the end, any process that is used consistently on quality rifles is likely to give good results.

I find the ladder method good at giving me a process oriented way of quickly understanding the performance of a powder/bullet combo.

AJ
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  #9  
Old 05-28-2009, 10:10 PM
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Re: Audette ladder test questions

Very interesting, thanks for both responses. Hope this is not taken as a high jack but as more questions on the same subject.

Have either of you noticed thats its harder or easier to find nodes depending on the type of rifle used? Such as light sporter rifle compared to say a heavy bench rifle?
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  #10  
Old 05-28-2009, 10:45 PM
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Re: Audette ladder test questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
Very interesting, thanks for both responses. Hope this is not taken as a high jack but as more questions on the same subject.

Have either of you noticed thats its harder or easier to find nodes depending on the type of rifle used? Such as light sporter rifle compared to say a heavy bench rifle?

I have more experience using the ladder with the lighter contour rifles and have had no trouble. The 338AM you built for me is my only 'heavy' gun. I didn't ladder test it, I played with the seating depth on the starting load and left it there!

The heaviest rifle I've ladder tested was the Varmint Contour Savage in 300WSM with a Joel Russo stock (13#'s). My 7RM is 8lbs all in (including Bipod). The lightest I've done is a 6# .243 Win, Rem 700 ADL.

The .243 (with it's super light barrel and high velocities) had the wildest swings on the target, the 300WSM (Varmint contour) had the smoothest steadiest vertical climb as the powder was increased. I'd guess that the heavier the barrel, the easier it is to 'decode' a ladder test. Probably has a lot to do with barrel harmonics.

In the article on 1000yd ladder tests, he said that at shorter distances, nodes can completely overlap each other. This would definitely make reading a target more difficult.

AJ
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  #11  
Old 05-29-2009, 07:45 AM
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Re: Audette ladder test questions

to me, I have seen that the rifles must be capable of sub MOA or it looks like "patterns".

Second thing is that by using the chrono with the process and logging MV of each shot, the coinciding nodes are easier to spot.

I have found that anything under 300 you can run into overlap with a very accurate gun many times, therefore my insistence on shooting 300-400 and in "no wind" conditions early in the morning or just before dusk normally.

I will often go down and check the target to number each round fired. I take a minimum of one minute between shots so I have the time anyway.

I use a plain piece of paper to plot each shot as I shoot it at the bench and number it. I write the number of shots fired on the side (say 1-15) and put the MV beside that corresponding number. When I go down, I will verify each shot placement and number them on the target. At the end, I can take the plot sheet, veryify placement on the target, look for POI nodes and then look for MV nodes and correspoding intersections. It is quite easy normally to see the MV nodes also, for ex

Once I get a node in the MV range I want, I then start the fine tuning process from the middle of the node normally tweaking powder, then seating depth and last if necessary primer changes. I do not like to make primer changes as normally you need to start over.

BH
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  #12  
Old 05-29-2009, 08:52 AM
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Re: Audette ladder test questions

THank you for your replies again. I may have to give the ladder test another try, maybe with a more conventional chambering to get the hang of it.

I can see how the accuracy of the rifle would greatly determine if a ladder test could be usible, as well as range, conditions and of course shooters ability. In a perfect world, I would think that being able to clamp the barreled receiver into a shooting fixture would be ideal but not everyone has access to something like that.

Thanks again for the replies.
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  #13  
Old 05-29-2009, 09:30 AM
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Re: Audette ladder test questions

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
I would think that being able to clamp the barreled receiver into a shooting fixture would be ideal ...
This question isn't directed just to Kirby.

Would this really be ideal? Would clamping the rifle or barreled receiver into a shooting fixture cause the rifle to have a different shooting "dynamic" then off a rest? Would you get different nodes?

-MR
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  #14  
Old 05-29-2009, 04:21 PM
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Re: Audette ladder test questions

I believe it certainly would change the dymanic of a rifle system to some degree but I am not sure there would be any other way to eliminate the humane element which is the weakest link in most rifles accuracy potential.

But, as you mentioned, it would be nothing like shooting the rifle off a human shoulder and as such, things would change, especially point of impact more then likely.
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Kirby Allen(50)

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Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

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Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

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