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APS 338 Raptor, R&D early results

 
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  #43  
Old 08-29-2013, 04:26 PM
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Re: APS 338 Raptor, R&D early results

Your 338 Raptor sounds and looks very impressive, kudos on the great work you are doing.

I have a little experience with RL 33 as I have been doing some testing with it in the 338 LM you built for me and at similar pressures I'm getting close to 100 fps higher velocity over Retumbo using 8 grs more powder.
91grs of Retumbo gets me 2780 fps and 99grs of RL 33 is 2878 fps with the 300gr Berger Hybrid.
I haven't had the chance to figure out anything about temp sensitivity yet as I just started testing but hope to see how it performs this winter compared to the 90+ temps now.
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  #44  
Old 08-29-2013, 05:15 PM
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Re: APS 338 Raptor, R&D early results

Quote:
Originally Posted by Engineering101 View Post
Kirby,

Quick Load lists the burn rate of powders. Below are the default values from QL for several powders that were mentioned in this thread. This burn rate is determined by testing. Of course, burn rate varies from lot to lot but should be in this general neighborhood. As you can see RL33 is slower than most. It also has the added advantage of a burn rate control agent impregnated into the powder granules like RL17. Iím running 99.0 grains behind a 200 gr Accubond at 3,150 fps in my 300 RUM with no pressure signs. Still waiting for the 210 Accubond Long Ranges to show up.

By the way Ramshot Magnum is a ball powder that is relatively temp stable. There is test data on Barnesí website showing this which I have confirmed with my own testing in 338 RUM.

Relative powder burn rates from QL:
H4831 0.4301
H1000 0.3660
Retumbo 0.3370
Magnum 0.3250
N570 0.2770
H870 0.2750
US869 0.2735
H50BMG 0.2705
RL33 0.2700
20N29 0.2400
RL50 0.2170
Very interesting but I can tell you for a fact that many of the powders in that list are out of order, at least from the lots I have in shop. Magnum is not slower then Retumbo in my testing and US869 is significantly slower then H50BMG and RL50 seems to be right between those two.

Now lot to lot variations certainly exist and burn rate can be dependent on the chambering your shooting them in so these lists are pretty fluid but does show some promise.

THanks for the info.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #45  
Old 08-29-2013, 05:16 PM
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Re: APS 338 Raptor, R&D early results

Quote:
Originally Posted by WAMBO View Post
Your 338 Raptor sounds and looks very impressive, kudos on the great work you are doing.

I have a little experience with RL 33 as I have been doing some testing with it in the 338 LM you built for me and at similar pressures I'm getting close to 100 fps higher velocity over Retumbo using 8 grs more powder.
91grs of Retumbo gets me 2780 fps and 99grs of RL 33 is 2878 fps with the 300gr Berger Hybrid.
I haven't had the chance to figure out anything about temp sensitivity yet as I just started testing but hope to see how it performs this winter compared to the 90+ temps now.
Thanks for the information, I will be burning some RL33 just to see what happens in my Raptor as well as my 338 AX.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #46  
Old 08-29-2013, 05:17 PM
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Re: APS 338 Raptor, R&D early results

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg View Post
Kirby, I'm looking forward to you testing the RL 33.

My results have shown it is closer to RL50 than Retumbo, if not it is right betweeen.

As I mentioned earlier RL33 really perked up my 338 Terminator, it is a smaller case than the Raptor by about 20 grains of water so as you say it may be too fast for the Raptor, time will tell
Ya, I need to burn some and just see what happens. Nothing else, may be a boost for the performance of the 338 AX.

Thanks for your info!
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #47  
Old 08-29-2013, 08:15 PM
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Re: APS 338 Raptor, R&D early results

Kirby, Could you remind us again about the Raptor case design and the thought processes regarding it's design? This is a completely new case designed by you, right?
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  #48  
Old 08-29-2013, 10:56 PM
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Re: APS 338 Raptor, R&D early results

Did not get any pics taken today, to busy with other projects but will get them.

About the 300 and 338 Raptor case design.

Originally, I used the 338 Excalibur case for the bases of both of these new wildcats and they did work very well. Jamison was the only maker of Excalibur brass that was somewhat affordable(+$4 ea.) and could handle a decent amount of chamber pressure.

Right after I got the reamers all finalized and load and ballistic testing done, Jamison international close its doors........ No brass available other then the A-square Excalibur brass which did not have the best reputation for strength of quality.

So, after all that work and money invested, the 300 and 338 Raptor projects were pretty much a dead stick.

A few months after this, I was talking with Joel Russo and he was telling me about some brass that Bertram had made for Bruce Baer for his 338 Big Baer and he had said how impressed he was with the brass and in working with Bertram. So I got ahold of Bruce Bertram and told him what I had in mind. We discussed the Excalibur case design briefly but I decided that if I was going to have brass made, why not just go with the Lapua diameter case instead of the slightly smaller diameter Excalibur case.

Bertram agreed that it would be easier as he could use body dies that he already had to keep cost down a bit. Now it I had to decide on case length. I wanted a longer case then the Lapua for sure but did not want just a non belted version of the 378 Wby case.

I set down and drew up a reamer print with what I thought would be perfect dimensions for the Raptors.

Basically, its a unique case design. Only thing similar with current case designs is the head diameter and rim diameter which are the same as the 338 Lapua. I decided that if I was going to do this we might as well go all out so I set the case OAL to 3.050" which is slightly longer then my 338 Allen Magnum.

The case body length is slightly longer then that of the 338 AM by design. This is so that there would be no chance that a 338 Raptor could chamber in a 338 AM rifle as that would be a very dangerous situation if that was possible. Again, the shoulder on the Raptor is about 70 thou farther forward compared to the 338 AM. So basically its a 338 Lapua case that has been stretched to a length of 3.050".

neck length is just shy of 0.300" which is plenty for a round designed for strictly a single shot rifle. Shoulder and case body specs are same as all my other APS wildcats. Throat length is set so that the 300 gr Berger Hybrid or OTM is seated with the full diameter bullet base seated to the base of the case neck for an OAL of 4.340" seated to the lands.

The leade is a conventional design with 1-0-0 angle, shallow but pretty standard by todays magnum throat designs. Same throat angle as is used by Remington in the RUM chamberings. Conventional leade angle is 1-30-0 so its a bit shallower to help flatten the pressure spike a bit but nothing unconventional in design.

Capacity is a tick over half way between the 338 Allen Xpress (338 Lapua Imrpoved) and the 338 Allen Magnum (338-408 Cheytac improved).

Conventional velocity standards for a 338 Lapua Improved in a 30" barrel with a 300 gr Berger is around 3000 fps. Standard velocity for the 338 AM out of a 32" barrel length is 3300 fps so my goal is 3150 fps which is appearing to be practical.

I will try to get some visual aids tomorrow to show examples.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #49  
Old 08-30-2013, 11:50 AM
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Re: APS 338 Raptor, R&D early results

Some quick pics.


300 Win Mag on left, 338 Raptor on right.


300 RUM on left, 338 Raptor on right


338 Lapua on left, 338 Raptor middle and 338 Allen Xpress on the right. when loaded with 300 gr Berger in each and all in 30" barrel, you will see roughly 2850 fps, 3150 fps and 3000 fps respectively. Again, these are averages from what I have seen so far. Some will be slightly faster, some slightly slower but this is pretty average.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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