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Any thoughts,400 yards?

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Unread 01-27-2009, 12:30 AM
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 208
Re: Any thoughts,400 yards?

Originally Posted by meichele View Post
We all talk about our .25-.5 MOA rifles but that is what it takes to hit a 1-2 MOA target at long range. Just because our rifles are sub half minute rifles doesnt meen we are going to hit a half minute target. Hitting a half minute target or shooting a half minute group at distance isnt and has never been the point. Having a half minute rifle to shoot a 1-2 minute target or shoot a 1 minute group in bad conditions is the point. If youre in the 1 MOA zone in bad conditions you should be extatic, not curious.
Just what I needed to hear I think, Ive been struggling to repeat past performances with my Lapua, NZ at the moment has been sorta hot,30 C
in the shade, 25-85 % humidity not the nicest conditions to shoot groups in
and in all my trying I cant repeat them, very frustrating.

Sometimes we just need to see things from a different seat.

Regards 300WSMMAD
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Unread 01-27-2009, 04:17 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The rifle range, or archery range or behind the computer in Alaska
Posts: 3,740
Re: Any thoughts,400 yards?

No problem.

Sometimes we expect too much. We do something amazing and want or think we can do it all the time. We cant. Thats why kill zones are 8-20" on most big game animals in north america. But if you can take a half minute rifle and hit a 1-2 MOA target in the real world then youre on the right track. The better the accuracy potential of your rifle and your abilities the better your chances for a clean harvest when conditions arent perfect. When conditions are perfect we expect to shoot half minute groups on small targets. Unfortunatly conditions are rarely perfect. It maybe lighting, wind, mirage or a whole host of other factors that affect our shots. When these conditions are present and we hit a 1 MOA target, we're happy!

Ask yourself. Was the 4" group at 400 yards good enough to take a deer?
Long range shooting is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (how bad your last shot was, how big the group is going to be, what your buck will score, what your match score is, what place you are in...) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process.
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Unread 01-27-2009, 09:44 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,882
Re: Any thoughts,400 yards?

Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
Is it possible the wind was affecting the steadiness of the rifle? When I shoot on windy days it's a challange for me to hold as steady as on calm days. Infact, I just can not hold extremely steady in anything more than a 5 mph crosswind that is pushing on my rifle. It bounces around, not much, but enough to affect accuracy. So I do not shoot for groups in those conditions. This is on a stout portable bench with sand bags.

Also, with all due respect to JE, who is an experienced contributor on this site, weight actually has little *direct* affect on resistance to wind drift. The only two factors that affect wind resistance are BC and velocity. A .277 bullet weighing 150 gr, with a BC of .5 and an MV of 3000 fps will experience exactley the same wind drift as .338 bullet weighing 300 gr and a BC of .5 with MV of 3000 fps. They will both arrive down range at the same distance with the same velocity, trajectory and TOF.

Having said that, weight is a factor in determining BC. Generally speaking, a heavier bullet in the same caliber of similar design will have a higher BC. But a smaller bullet with a greater BC than a larger bullet, traveling at the same velocity will buck wind better than the larger bullet.
This is not ment to be argumentative so don't take it that way .

It is a good subject to debate and we can allways learn something from others if we listen.

You are dead on about the wind drift under your conditions BUT your numbers are not apples
to apples.

Most ,277 dia. 150 gr bullets are from.450 to .530 BC.

A 300gr .338 bullet will be in the mid to high .700 BC ( 300 SMK is .768 BC).

So with a 150gr .277 dia bullet @ 3000 ft/sec drop at 400yrds would be 18.7 "
Wind drift @ 400 yrds would be 10.2"

And with a 300gr .338 dia. bullet @ 3000 ft/sec drop at 400yrds is 16.9"
and wind drift is 6.4"

At 1000yrds the .277 150 gr @3000 ft/sec mv drops 275.7" and drift is 79.7"
The .338 300 gr @ 3000 ft/sec mv drops.217.0" and drift is 45.4"

So compairing the two is not very fair to the 270 .

The point to my reply is that with weight comes BC and ( the higher the weigh in
a given dia. the BC will go up as long as it is the same basic shape ( Not spitzer to
Round nose ).

This is The reason that most long range shooters try to get the Highest BC and velocity
there rifle is capable of and weight is the key to higher BC's

Just my point of view
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Unread 01-27-2009, 10:55 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Montana
Posts: 2,456
Re: Any thoughts,400 yards?

Or what the bullet is made out of. Increase length = increase bc, w/o increasing weight = faster = even less drop and drift.

So, same bc bullet of less weight in the same cal. will out run the the heaver bullet at any distance.

Beyond that comes the difference in speed vs the difference in bc out to what distance.

For example I am running the 180g E-tip instead of the 200g accubond out of my 30cal because it out performs to about 1000yrds.

Just my .02

Hammer Bullets
Advanced Technology
Simply Better

To hunt... or not to hunt...? What a stupid question.
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Unread 01-27-2009, 11:44 AM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: South of Canada and North of Wyoming
Posts: 6,068
Re: Any thoughts,400 yards?

JE, I completely aggree with you. Maybe I should have used a more real world example. A lot of folks think that weight is a direct factor in bucking wind and my point was that it depends on how that weight is packaged. The only two factors plugged into the wind drift calcs are velocity and BC. I wanted to use two exagerated examples to illustrate that. Weight does play a role in BC and to what degree depends on shape and projectile surface.

In a more real world case, a 7mm 180 gr VLD, with a BC of .659, fired @ 3250 fps will edge (No pun intended) out a 300 SMK fired @ 2850 fps, at 1000 yds by about 1" in drift and 45"of drop. Beyond the 1000 yd mark the SMK passes the VLD in bucking wind because of it's higher BC.

So yeah, in most cases, with the bullets we shoot, the heaviers ones are better for bucking wind. In some cases a smaller bullet will out peform a larger one to some degree.

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