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880" of elk in one pic.....

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Unread 02-17-2008, 09:39 AM
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Posts: 137
Kirby Allen,

Thank you very much for the post and information. I unforturately will never experience a wild elk hunt. For many reasons, mainly my bank account will not allow me to pay the amount of money required for an elk hunt. The 2nd reason is my health will not allow me to go. I have brain cancer and a prosthetic left leg so climbing the mountions is not so easy. Having recently found out about the recurrence of the brain cancer limits me from traveling from N.C. to an Elk location. I was fortunate enough to meet a rancher/gukde from Arizona/New Mexico this past summer in Ohio at the Deerroasic Classic. The Ranger /Guide was/is willing to let me come out to his ranch and help place stands and in return he will allow me access to all his land in Ar.& N.M. just to see the elk and watch them in the wild before season comes in. If you can imaginve, me being from N.C. would just be excited about seeing/watching such wonderful animals. Hunting/killing an elk really doesn't matter as much as just being able to see them in their natural habitate.

I have been fortunate to have met Bob Hart and Dwayne Wessinger this year. Bob,Dwayne and some more of their friends allowed me to tag along and actually shoot my first long range whitetail deer this past July. We traveled to New York State for a nuissansse deer thinning hunt. Using one of Bob's 30 Harts and with his help I took a doe at ~680 yards. Then in Aug./Sept. Bob allowed me to shoot 1 of his 6.5x284s at the IBS 1,000 yard Nationals at Quantico, Va.

What a thrill it has been for me, this last year. Bob, Dwayne Wessinger, and Joella Bates also set me up on a Black Bear Hunt in Maine with Moe Hart of Bear Ledge Kennels. What an experience to go up to Maine and hunt Black Bears. Actually when I returned home after the bear hunt is when I found out the caner is back and growing in my brain.

I am really thankfull to Bob, Dwayne, Joella , Moe and the rest of the Long Range Community for taking me in and allowing me to learn and take part in Long Range Hunting and Shooting.

Mike Alford

Last edited by mikenc; 02-17-2008 at 09:46 AM.
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Unread 02-17-2008, 11:25 AM
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Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
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Thank you for your opinion on the elk. This is not an uncommon opinion and one that generally comes from close minded, uneducated people. I am certainly not labeling you this way because I do not know you other then some posts I have read of yours which I generally enjoy reading a great deal.

It is obvious you are a serious hunter which should be commended and respected. I see myself to be the same, not because of the elk I shot in Nebraska but for the upper end whitetails I have killed in this state every year for the last 15 years. Not by luck or a honey spot to hunt them but because I put in 25 days of hunting every season and am very selective on the whitetails I kill every year.

Why did I go to Nebraska, probably will not help to explain it because I have already but you seem to have missed that point in the original post if you bothered to read it.

I do not know what you do for a living. Don't care really, personally, I am a rifle maker, more specifically, I see myself as a custom wildcat designer and to this date I have nearly 20 wildcats with my name on them and over 15 of them have been sent out to the public with amazing results. What you may not understand is that when you design new wildcats and are testing new custom bullets for a specific purpose, you have to test these things before you send them out to the public.

You need load development, which I can do here at my place, you need accuracy and consistancy testing which I can do here as well for the most part. You need ballistic testing and data which I can also do locally. You need field testing results as well which to some degree I can do here as well but on some of the wildcat chamberings I have designed that are designed for larger heavier game, these animals are not readily available. Yes, I could hunt wild elk here in Montana, certainly no question there. BUT, I have to wait until our general season, I have to take alot of time out of my work schedule to hunt public ground and then hope that I could catch up to a big bull.

Even the most experienced hunters seldom get a bull elk every year or even every other year on montana public ground.

I can not wait that long. I need the results for my customers NOW. As such, high fence hunts are the best way to do it. Is it expensive, yes, and I apologize to my customers for spending my own money to test my own rifles and some new custom bullets to prove or disprove them long before my customers get these products in their hand.

What good would it do to shoot a 300 lb whitetail with my 338 Allen Xpress with a 265 gr AT RBBT bullet when in most cases a 25-06 would do just as well......

So while you look at these elk and think of me as simply a lazy guy that can not nut, you need to open your mind and look at this as a rifle, cartridge and bullet field test which is what it was as are all of my hunts that I book on high fence properties.

For my business to be successful, I need results, quickly. They can look good on paper all day long and that will carry you a ways but until these ideas are proven in real life, I can not in good faith offer my products to the public. You may have a hard time with this, so be it.

I have used these high fence hunts to test many of my wildcat designs as well as new bullet designs from Wildcat bullets including the following:

257 Allen Magnum
6.5mm Allen Xpress
270 Allen Magnum
7mm Allen Magnum
338 Allen Xpress

All of these chamberings were proven on big game on high fence hunts before they were ever offered to the public simply to prove the effectiveness and actual real world performance, not just hoping and wishing that they will work for my customers. That is not good enough. They have to work, they have to be proven to work or I will not allow my customers to receive a rifle chambered in them or recommend a bullet for any use until I have done it myself and witnessed the actual results for myself.

If you look at ANY of the ammo, rifle, optical or any other product associated with the firearm or hunting industry, do they book hunts for in Montana for wild elk, never, they book hunts for high fence hunts generally in Texas. EVERY ONE OF THEM DO.... Why, so that you get a good product that has been tested in the field so every time you buy a Rem 700 or a Win M70 or a Savage or Sako, or Wby of Browning or TC, you are buying a proven product that has been proven on high fence hunting ranches pure and simple.

This instance is no different other then I am one man that you can focus on which is fine but if you can not see this for what it really is, simply field testing, your more closed minded then I believe you are but if that is the case so be it.

These are not high dollar livestock, they are high dollar field test subjects that I gladly pay for on my own dime simply so that I can offer my customers a proven product.

I have never made any claims about how these hunts are the equal to wild game hunts. I have never tried to pull them off as anything other then what they are. I support most of the wild game associations as I am sure you do also and will continue to do so. But in my business, I need proven products, as such, I pay for those tests out of my own pocket out of my own time for one reason, so if you call me up and order a 338 Allen Xpress rifle, I can tell you for a fact that it will work on 1000 lb elk out to long range with perfect results if used properly.

I want the most realistic test results possible but I also NEED those results when I need them. I can not afford to go hunting for two weeks in the HOPES that I get some test results. These high fence hunts are somewhat a more controled situation.

Do high fence big game kill easier then wild game, would like to see that proven. So basically, I pay for the test results, the benefits are a fine animal I get to hang on the wall and alot of extremely fine table fair, a great hunting video, great times with my family and most important of all, I prove to myself that my wildcat ideas WORK and that way I know they will work for my customers when used correctly.

If that offends you, I apologize, not my intention, I simply wanted to post the results of the range tests. On this hunt, I could have shot a 300-350" bull the first 15 minutes of the hunt. I could have shot several 370" to 390" class bulls several time on the three day hunts but no, If I was going to do it, I wanted the biggest bull I could find on the property, it took two days to find him and another full day to actually get a shot at him.

I am sure if I had drawn a breaks permit and hired a local outfitter in that area for $6000 for a week hunt and killed a +400" bull you would have had nothing but praise for me. Would that hunt be any harder, NOPE. I have been on several hunts out in the breaks area with other hunters with permits. They arranged the hunts with local outfitters which is smart for a once in a lifetime permit and we drove out to a private ranchers hay field, waitied for it to get light or waited till the evening and had 500 head of elk walk out in front of us at anywhere from 100 to 500 yards. Line the rifle up on the bull you want, pull the trigger and go get the front loader, hang the bull up, clean it back the truck under it and go home. I assure you my bull took much more effort and persistance then many of the private property hunts here in Montana. Shooting a big bullet in a hay field out of several hundred other elk is not difficult, getting the permit is the hard part.

You will say at least these elk have a chance to run away, yep, you shoot, they run to the other end of the field in plain sight as you load up the elk.

Now there are many forms of elk hunting, some are extremely difficult, do it yourself, public ground hunts can be extremely difficult with very low success rates. Again, I need results and that is why I book these hunts, it is a business venture, again to provide you proven products in the event you decide you want one of my products.

I can not imagine you would not prefer that when you are looking to drop several thousand $$ on a fine rifle in a wildcat chambering. Or maybe you would feel better if I told you I took the rifle on a wild elk hunt hoping to get results but it just did not happen, but I am sure it would work for you in the field if you got the chance.......

Again, you can call them what you will, you are wrong and uneducated as to why I book these hunts and if you have read my posts all along about these hunts, you would know the reason. To offer solid, real world field results to my customers or those that may potentially become my customers.

If I were to take a wild 300" bull with archery gear, I would be extremely proud of that bull. If I shot a 350" bull with my rifles, Again, I would be extremely proud of the animal. Does my 466" bullet compare to these as far as trophy quality, in my mine, no, it does not. It is what it is, an extremely large elk that was taken on a high fence hunting ranch. I have never claimed or looked at it in any other way. I do not know why you feel you have to be so aggressive with your comments.

I am sure there have been critters you have shot that I would say were not animals I would shoot but the difference is that I would never say that.

You are right, you have your opinion and I welcome any opinion out there and always have and always will but to disrespect someone because you are uneducated as to why these animals were actually harvested makes you look rather silly.

If I came on LRH saying I shot this monster elk with no comment at all about where it was harvested, you would have a leg to stand on, in this case, you have nothing to base your opinion on because your opinion of why I shot this bull is not the reason at all, at least now, perhaps you understand why this bull will be on my wall and what purpose it has served me and all my current and potential customers. If you can not see that and understand that, we have no reason to discuss it any further.

Again, thank you for your opinion, but in this case, it is an uneducated opinion as to these elk and why they were harvested and perhaps if you opened your mind abit, you would realize the service they provide us in the firearms and hunting industry.

If you can not see that, you certainly do not understand the business, results sell, proven results get you customers, consistant long term results make you a living.

Failures result in you working for someone else making them money as you will not be selling many rifles if your products fail in the field.

Sorry for the lengthy reply but I feel you needed this laid out very clearly for you. Do I think it will change your mind, nope, not a chance.

In my opinion, a +400" animal is something amazing to see weither in the wild or in a large acre hunting encloser. I can tell you for a fact that during this hunt, we never ran an elk or herd into a boundary fence, EVER. They played the game just like wild elk, when they wind you or see you, they hit the black timber and you either have to go in after them or wait for them to come out to feed in the mornings and evenings. We went in after my brothers bull, we waited mine out after chasing him in the timber for a full day.

Take it for what you will and thanks for your opinion, I am sure I did not change your opinion and I know for a fact you will not change mine. I hunt wild game 90% of the time I am in the field, I have hunted for over a decade with handguns, I have hunted with archery gear for many years, I have two wild whitetail hunts planned this year out of state and out of country, I have a moose hunt booked this fall in Canada which will be with archery gear. I also have a hunt planned this spring to hopefully harvest what may turn out to be the new world record Axis buck which will be taken with either a my 6.5mm Allen Magnum or 270 Allen Magnum, have not decided yet. I may also take a big old water buff on the same hunt with my new 375 Allen Xpress if I can get it ready in time. Both of these will be on a high fence ranch and I will enjoy them as I do with any of my hunts, wild or high fence. And I will get alot of field test results in the mean time, again, the main reason for my high fence hunts.

You may ask why shoot these big animals then, if your going to do it why not get the best animals you can.... Just like wild game hunting, the goal is always the same, get the best animal you can if your trophy hunting.

Nuff said,

Take care, thanks for your post.

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

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Unread 02-17-2008, 11:29 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: colorado
Posts: 1,053
Great story and amazing animals. Thanks for posting Kirby, I can't fathom what that must look like up close.

Thanks for posting the original thread/story Dick.
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Unread 02-17-2008, 12:52 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 137

You shouldn't have to explain yourself that way, but thanks. It's much like people being critical of those who take shots beyond a certain distance. People who don't understand, generally a most critical and outspoken.

It is much like going to a cattle farmer and picking the cow to take home and make steaks out of. If there is nothing wrong with buying a cow for slaughter, whars so wrong with buying a deer or an elk for basically the same thing?

Mike Alford
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Unread 02-17-2008, 08:36 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,845
Was impressed before I saw that they were high fence. Here in Texas, we have a lot of that and I am shown pictures all of the time by guys proud of a trophy that was shot behind high fence and actually get upset when I don’t agree that “it is a book deer” because it is not and cannot be considered as such under any circumstances. Sorry but unfortunately that is the stone cold truth of the matter no matter how anyone tries to justify it high fence is high fence. IMHO might as well go to the zoo..
The Truth Is Not Always Good For Business!!
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Unread 02-17-2008, 10:46 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,841
Boss Hoss,

You bother to read my reply a couple posts ago? You guys are a waste of time to talk to.

By the way, wonder if you or Nonya would ever go to south Africa to hunt? From your already boldly stated comments, I would suspect not because there is no fair case hunting in South Africa, well, VERY little anyway, just like your state which is by the way the king of the high fence states. Thats where it all started and not only do they put high fence around planted game, they put high fence around the wild game that was on that property, now thats ethics for ya!!!

Like I said my friend, talking with you has turned into a waste of time for the last several encounters we have had. Seems you have a chip on your shoulder for some reason. Not sure why but it comes out more often these days.

Your cold stone truth is only that in your close minded, uneducated head, that is the simple stone cold truth!!!

Feel free to not post to any topic I start from here on. Your replys really are just a waste of time because they offer nothing of any meaningful thought or debate, just personal attachs.

Please continue posting to all other posts on LRH, hope you do, just ignore mine because you cant seem to control yourself and I do not want to be the cause of your undies being in a bunch!!

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
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Unread 02-17-2008, 10:52 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Potomac River
Posts: 5,070
Boss Hoss

You have been a member here for three hunting season and have not yet managed to post up a story or any pictures of anything you have killed if you have killed anything. Perhaps you are too busy to get around to typing up your own stories and can only find the time to insult other people.
The Smokin Fur Rifle Club
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