Long Range Hunting Online Magazine 8.59 Titan Lazzeroni
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8.59 Titan Lazzeroni

#22
11-28-2011, 07:37 PM
 Official LRH SPONSOR Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 214
Re: 8.59 Titan Lazzeroni

Michael ,,,,,

OK ,, I think you know what you are talking about ,,,,,

now please run the wind-drift numbers at 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900 & 1,000 yards on the Lazzeroni 185gr LazerHead load, using the LazerHead BC of .437 and a muzzle velocity of 3,580fps, 72 degrees F, at sea level ,,,, 15 mph direct crosswind ,,,,

the Lazzeroni Titan with the same length 27" barrel, shooting a .338 diameter, 300gr bullet would have a muzzle velocity of around 2,850 fps, using a 10 twist barrel ((will the 10 twist stabilize the 300gr bullet, or is a 9 twist required ?)),,,,

__________________
John Lazzeroni ,,,, John@Lazzeroni.com ,,,
http://www.lazzeroni.com/
#23
11-28-2011, 08:37 PM
 Platinum Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The rifle range, or archery range or behind the computer in Alaska Posts: 3,267
Re: 8.59 Titan Lazzeroni

10x is fine for the 300 grain pills.

You can check out the JBM calculator to compare a wide range of ballistic calculations.....Do a search on google for JBM ballistics.

At 1K the 185 = 110" of drift. The 300 = 68" of drift. The 185 = 1076 pounds of energy. The 300 is double that.

Hope that helps!

I assume your 8.59 is a 10x? I think your 308 Warbird is 12x? That sure could be improved for the high BC pills.
__________________
Limits are only perceived by what has previously been achieved. Push the limits and good things will happen.

Go the distance or go home

Follow through matters. SEE THE FIRE!!!

August 2013 dall sheep: Passed one legal ram. Yes I regret it....
August 2013 Antelope: SUCCESSFULL!
October2013 Bull elk: Had to burn the tag.
It's been a GREAT year!
#24
11-28-2011, 10:23 PM
 Official LRH SPONSOR Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 214
Re: 8.59 Titan Lazzeroni

Michael ,,,,,

using your recommended ballistics program, the 185gr Lazerhead has a great advantage to 400 yards as far as trajectory is concerned, energy and wind drift are close to the same ,,,,,

500 yards and beyond the energy and wind drift numbers move the advantage to the 300gr bullet, but the trajectory is MUCH flatter with the 185gr bullet all the way to 1,000 yards ,,,,

recoil is probably going to be increased a bit, with the 300gr bullet, but most of the tactical style rifles used for that stuff are heavy enough, or they use the ear splitting muzzle brakes, that recoil likely does not matter ,,,,,

interesting data ,,,,, and it is no problem to build a Lazzeroni rifle with a 10 twist barrel instead of 12 ,,,,

now please give me your opinion on which brands of scopes have drop/windage compensators that are accurate & repeatable, every time to 1,000 yards ,,,,,
__________________
John Lazzeroni ,,,, John@Lazzeroni.com ,,,
http://www.lazzeroni.com/
#25
11-28-2011, 10:46 PM
 Platinum Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The rifle range, or archery range or behind the computer in Alaska Posts: 3,267
Re: 8.59 Titan Lazzeroni

Quote:
 Originally Posted by LazzInc now please give me your opinion on which brands of scopes have drop/windage compensators that are accurate & repeatable, every time to 1,000 yards ,,,,,
I think I see where this conversation is headed and I will sign off at this point. All I can say is that this is the wrong forum to start this argument......Just a friendly warning of what cans of worms may be opened with this.
__________________
Limits are only perceived by what has previously been achieved. Push the limits and good things will happen.

Go the distance or go home

Follow through matters. SEE THE FIRE!!!

August 2013 dall sheep: Passed one legal ram. Yes I regret it....
August 2013 Antelope: SUCCESSFULL!
October2013 Bull elk: Had to burn the tag.
It's been a GREAT year!
#26
11-28-2011, 10:58 PM
 Gold Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Searcy, Arkansas Posts: 700
Re: 8.59 Titan Lazzeroni

John, Like Bravo 4 said, I'm not trying to pick on or at you either one. As a person who also built a (aircraft) electronics business from scratch, I have great respect for anyone who builds a successful business much less two of them! It must be real hoot to have your own rifle and ammunition company.

That said, if you stick around after the initial "sniffing each other out", and I hope you do, you will come to understand a few things about most of the serious LR shooters on this site. One is that for the most part we don't consider 500 yards long range. That may be starting edge of long range but many of us are playing the game at 1000+. No, I don't mean target shooting, I am talking about first round kill shots on big game. The other thing is (just trust me on this one) you don't want to get the discussion started that high BC VLD profile bullets such as Berger and SMKs are not effective big game bullets. This site will serve you hundreds if not thousands of examples to prove you wrong at ranges of almost point blank to waaaay over 1000 yards. If I wanted to total them up I could probably come up darn near a hundred one shot kills with VLD bullets myself.

There are plenty on this site that are in that group you are talking about that are shooting to maximum of 500 yards, but many if not most of them are just starting on their journey to real long range shooting. I fully understand from a marketing standpoint the reason for the appeal to that demographic of shooter/hunter. If you are going to get this crowd interested in your rifles you are going to have to start talking capabilities with heavy for caliber VLD bullets and ranges much longer than 500. IMHO

Oh, I forgot to say WELCOME to the site!
#27
11-30-2011, 11:29 AM
 Official LRH SPONSOR Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 214
Re: 8.59 Titan Lazzeroni

Michael ,,,, RDM416 ,,,,,

the Reason I asked about the accuracy of scope drop compensators, is this,,,,,

up to a few years ago, I was a regular at the 1,000 yard shooting matches here in Tucson, and I would very often shoot my own personal hunting rifle during some of the relays in the match,,, we even had a HUNTER class at the matches, using certain types of hunting rifles etc ,,,,

I used a Schmidt & Bender 4-16X50 PMII with 34mm tube and big drop compensator ,,, and just to test the accuracy of the compensator, I would dial it down to zero and back up to the 1,000 yard setting between relays ,,,

Doing this I would see a variance somewhere between 6 & 14" on point of impact, and would have to fine-tune the clicks, to center my shots vertically back on the bull’s-eye,,,,

I was shooting with Col Craig Boddington one day a few years ago, and while testing loads at various ranges out to 700 yards, we experienced this same phenomenon with other brands of scopes with drop compensators,

that is why I personally use ONLY a front focal plane mounted mil-dot reticle in my hunting rifle, I zero at 200 yards, first mil-dot is 400, second dot is 550, third dot down is 700 & 4th is 820 yards, using the 168gr HPBT factory load, 7.82 Warbird caliber ,,, I zero the windage at 550 yards to compensate for spin-drift, and if I am an inch or so left of center at 300 yards, it won't matter in the field ,,,,,
and I CHECK and SHOOT at each one of those ranges to verify the point of impact, I don't rely upon hand-held ballistics programs to tell me where to hold at long range ,,,,

as for accurate range calculations each and every time, I agree with you that the range finders have gotten much better, than the old Swarovski "brick" I paid \$3,000.00 for in the middle 90's, but not THAT much better ,,,,
today I use the Swarovski hand-held monocular range finder, and it is good to 1,400+ yards on a big target like a rock, tree or building, but put an antelope, mule deer, caribou or elk, out on the flat, 600-900 yards away, bright sunlight, with no other big tree or rock to get a hit off of, getting as steady as possible with the rangefinder, and you cannot always get an accurate range to the target ,,,

on a recent mountain goat hunt in BC, we spotted two large Billy’s lying down way up in the rocky peaks toward the top, after about 3 1/2 hours if climbing, we got within 900 yards, then decided to climb some more to get closer and found a somewhat flat spot in the terrain, to allow me to go prone ,,,,

the Billy’s had positioned themselves so that they could watch everything below them ,,,, I tried to get a rangefinder hit on the biggest of the two, and just could not get one on the Billy himself lying in the flat moss, but I was able to get a hit on the rock face right behind him ,,,, rangefinder said 658, so I subtracted 50 yards which was my estimate, from the Billy to the rock ,,,,

I put the 550 yard mil-dot right at the top of his shoulder, slowly squeezed and BOOM!, my guide called the shot just inches over the goats back ,,, goat jumped to his feet, I ran the bolt, put the 550 yard mil-dot, low on the front shoulder and JUST as the rifle fired, the goat stepped forward, and the bullet hit him right in the paunch, he ran forward about 50 yards, slowed to a walk and this time with a slight lead right at the front of his body, I hit him in the chest cavity and he stopped, I hit him again in the chest cavity, ((goats are very tough little suckers)) and then he started to roll down the hill ,,,,

I was very embarrassed by the small pile of brass that had begun to accumulate on the ground to the right of my rifle ,,, as here I was, the “supposedly” deadly accurate every time John Lazzeroni, and I had made a range calculation error, then shot the poor goat in the stomach before finally getting him down ,,,,,

as for windage calculations in the field, across canyons, at long range, with winds fairly high and gusting, I don't think you can make accurate calculations on an exact dial or windage hold ,,,,,

a few years ago in Mexico, we had a nice buck bedded down across a canyon at 590 yards, ((got a good rangefinder hit off the big tree he was lying under)) ,,,, I did not want to shoot him in his bed, as the vital area target is smaller when they lie down, so I got prone and just waited about 45 minutes for him to stand up ,,,

,, during the wait I was making my wind calculations, with my trusty wind gauge, trying to figure out how much harder it was blowing high across the center of the canyon, and how hard was it blowing where the little Coues deer was bedded ,,,,, and to make matters worse, the wind was gusting in cycles ,,,

I know at this range, my wind drift is about 2X the speed of the wind in inches, again using my 7.82 Warbird rifle, 168 gr HPBT, ,,, I was showing a steady 10-12 mph where I was with gusts up to 20 mph, and the wind was blowing about the same at the deer, from what I could tell by looking thru the scope ,,,,

so using an “average” of 15 mph wind ,, I quickly calculated about 30" of wind drift to the target, the deer was facing into the wind, and if he stood up facing the wind, I decided that if the wind WAS blowing a lot harder over the center of the canyon, the worst that would happen is that I would hit him in the backside, which would still put him down ,,,,

30" of wind drift is about 1 1/2 mil-dots at 600 yards, so I practiced the hold while the deer was still lying down, 550 yard dot high on the body, 1.5 mil-dot into the wind, from his chest ,,,,
he finally did stand up, facing the wind, I took the hold I had been practicing and BOOM ,,,, you guessed it, shot him right in the AS_ ! ,,, but he did go down, and all I had to do was walk up and finish him off ,,,,,,

I have so many stories and experiences like this, that I cannot recall or count them all, but these real-world hunting experiences have taught me that "I" want the most velocity that I can get my hands on ((without sacrificing accuracy)) to flatten out the trajectory at all practical hunting ranges, and enough bullet weight and integrity when it hits the animal, to get the job done, every time ,,,,,

if you guys are able to make one shot kills, in the field, every time, to 1,000+ yards, with the long, slow VLD bullets and scope mounted dial elevation and windage adjustments, and you don't have to have a wheelbarrow to carry it all up the mountain, you are in a whole nother class of hunter and shooter than I can ever hope to be ,,,,,,
__________________
John Lazzeroni ,,,, John@Lazzeroni.com ,,,
http://www.lazzeroni.com/
#28
11-30-2011, 02:12 PM
 Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Washington Posts: 592
Re: 8.59 Titan Lazzeroni

Lazzinc I respect what you have accomplished and realize that you have both more experience and knowledge than I might ever have. That said I'm just stating an observation here, I think you just look at longrange hunting differently than a majority of the people on here. Its not right or wrong just different, possibly more realistic to a majority of shooters. The things that I notice are that you lean on velocity as the number one factor to improve longrange potential. And while that's an inarguable factor I think people here have two legs as the foundation, both velocity and bullet selection. With these heavy vld bullets you lose flat trajectory but gain wind profile. I believe it's easier to make up for distance, we have very good rangefinders now. The biggest factor will always be the wind. Take for instance your deer story, side note probably not a good example to prove your point by the way I think most hunters would have given the wind more credit and opted to miss in front rather than gut shoot but it your choice. Back to the story you knew the distance with a heavy wind bucking vld you might have miss judged the wind but had less drift and landed in the kill zone. These are just observations Im still learning and have been known to be wrong before so correct if I'm not quite accurate. Also if you want to see longrange kills get in touch with Shawn carlock at defensive edge and order some off his videos.In regards to rangefinder if you put up 3000 a long time ago then you might be willing to again, look into vectronix plfr 10 and some other models. They supposively range out to 3000 yards and everything out to 2000 is easy, sunny, rocks, animals it all is easy from reports. All due respect Mr. Lazzeroni

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