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7mm Rem Mag

 
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  #85  
Old 03-12-2013, 10:58 AM
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Re: 7mm Rem Mag

This thread got me to thinking about just how much recoil difference we're talking about.

I plugged some numbers into Shooterscalculator.com recoil calculator.
(note: powder charges were based on info from hodgdon's web sight, I will double check/verify via Berger's manual later).

Rifle 1- 7mm Rem Mag
Weight: 12 Lbs
Bullet Weight: 180 grains
Muzzle velocity: 2950fps
Powder charge: 72 Grains

Calculated Recoil Energy: 20.98 fl/lbs
Calculated Recoil Velocity: 10.61 fps


Rifle 2- .300 Win Mag
Weight: 12 Lbs
Bullet Weight: 215 grains
Muzzle Velocity: 2950fps
Powde Charge: 85 Grains +/- (no data for 215)

Calculated Recoil Energy: 29.65 ft/lbs
Calculated Recoil Velocity: 12.61 fps


Recoil Difference: 8.67 ft/lbs
Velocity Difference: 2 fps


An AK-47 is calculated at about 9 ft/lbs of recoil energy. Interesting data I think.



t
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  #86  
Old 03-12-2013, 11:12 AM
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Re: 7mm Rem Mag

That is really interesting...I have never shot a .300 win, but the difference between a 7 mag shooting 175's and my 300 RUM shooting 200's is not a big difference. Noticable, yes...but substantial? I don't think so. Obviously the .300 win would be in between, but I guess shooting 215's makes a difference too...
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  #87  
Old 03-12-2013, 11:41 AM
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Re: 7mm Rem Mag

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by southpa View Post
Lets say for all reasonable purposes that nobody here knows squat about LR shooting! Just as a help for me trying to select a caliber... Put all your prefferences aside for just a moment and look at it this way...

You have zero LR experience and you are presented with 2 calibers (assume you do not know what either calibers are for this scenario). keep in mind the shooter is competent and ethical and will not attempt shots outside his skill level

1-Muzzle velocity between the 2 calibers is a wash
2-1000yd velicity almost a wash
3-KE slightly higher on caliber 2
4-BC ehhh
5-caliber 1 has less recoil caliber 2 encourages a brake more so
6-caliber 1 doesnt quite (very close though) measure up to caliber 2 on the KE but caliber 1 is less suceptable to wind drift and what not as it posses a smaller more narrow bullet design ultimately aiding to accuracy (which is the name of the game in the first place).
7-caliber 1 ultimatley matches up to caliber 2 and it does so with a smaller lighter bullet, with less felt recoil...
Here are some number that were previously posted:

1- 180 Hybrid, G7 BC .345, MV 2950
1000 yds Vel 1756, KE 1232, 5 MPH wind 4.5 MOA

2- 215 Hybrid. G7 BC .356. MV 2950
1000 yds Vel 1788, KE 1526, 5 MPH wind 4.4 MOA

I realize most guys will find what they like and defend it till the end but based on what facts i have gather in the above, trowing out either caliber specifically and looking at what is presented, what is your consensus. Isnt accuracy the underlying factor? Maybe its a aguruement of accuracy vs. energy to save your a$@ should your accuracy fail at 1000 yd. BUT....if you are accurate who needs the evergy right.....
southpa, I have no preferences. As stated earlier, the 300 WM would not be my first choice for the paramters you set, although I think it is capable and more capable than the 7 RM, (which I do own and have shot and taken many animals with) is .

IME, a 308 215 gr bullet is more than a slight advantage over a 7mm 180 bullet and at a 1000 yds on large game. I would take the advantage.

On recoil, both of my 7mms are sporters weighing about 8 lbs wth scope. When I did not use a slip on recoil pad, I was done after about 20 rounds of shooting max load 160's. A 300 WM will give you noticeably more recoil than the 7. My Senderos weigh 13 lbs with scope (NF), so I'm guessing that a Sendero 300 WM will kick similar to a sporter 7 RM and the Sendero 7 will obviously kick less. Like I said, with a slip-on recoil pad, I can shoot a 300 RUM all day long. Without it, I would probably be done after 3-5 rounds even in a Sendero.

Accuracy is not a matter of caliber, It's a matter of rifle, load and shooter. My 300 RUM is quite accurate and I have shot numerous sub 1/2 MOA groups with it, even without a brake.

Any factory production line rifle you buy may or may not be a shooter. Senderos definitely do have a better track record. That said an off the shelf 300 WM might be a 1/2 MOA shooter while an off the shelf 7 might a 1 MOA shooter or vise versa.

If you go with the 7, it will be a fine rifle (probably - no guarantees from the factory) but it will be less capable in terms of terminal performance of your stated goal, than the 300 WM.

I have no dog in this fight. I do not own a 300 WM and will not be purchasing one. What you are getting from me is purely objective reasoning. The numbers are before you. In fact, I really don't care for belted cartridges period. But that is more a subjective view than objective.
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  #88  
Old 03-12-2013, 11:44 AM
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Re: 7mm Rem Mag

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cohunter14 View Post
That is really interesting...I have never shot a .300 win, but the difference between a 7 mag shooting 175's and my 300 RUM shooting 200's is not a big difference. Noticable, yes...but substantial? I don't think so. Obviously the .300 win would be in between, but I guess shooting 215's makes a difference too...
That is also interesting, because the recoil difference between my sporter 7 shooting max loads of 160's and my Sendero 300 RUM (5lbs heavier) shooting max load 180's and 210's is HUGE.
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  #89  
Old 03-12-2013, 02:31 PM
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Re: 7mm Rem Mag

As for barrel life if you use this barrel life calculator.

Excel Formula Predicts Useful Barrel Life within AccurateShooter.com

And use the max load of H-4831 for the 180 Berger from the hodgdon Website for the 7mm mag it figures at 1285 rounds. For the 300 win if you use the max load data for the 208 A-max and H-4831 it figures 1414. 129 rounds more out of a 300 win which is not a deal breaker by any means.

MontanaRifleman you just admitted you do not have a 300 win but have fallen on your sword that it performs better than a 7mm mag. So I was correct you have limited experience with both cartridges. I see you fail to comment on the elk exits I provided. I ask again where is the substantial tissue damage that I should be seeing?

To answer the OP's question if I thought I could shoot one better than the other that would be the one I pick. I have real life experience with both shooting and I am talking 1000's of rounds between the two and hunting with each one. I do not think one is better than the other.
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  #90  
Old 03-12-2013, 02:34 PM
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Re: 7mm Rem Mag

One more post to separate the subjective from the objective.

No one can say concisely, in quantitative terms, how well a particular cartridge will perform on a particular animal at a particular distance. We can make educated guesses based on past performance which are often quite different result wise. For the most part we can make a fairly good guess, but when we approach certain limits like "opening velocity" of a bullet, etc, we are starting to roll the dice.

Your parameters are on or near "the edge" of both cartridges you are considering.

What is not up for debate is the proven ballistics and the terminal effect potential of each cartridge based on hard facts such as bullet size. Physics is physics. Science is science.

It is reasonable and rational to say that a bullet with 20% more mass has a greater potential for killing power. It is also reasonable to say that potential is proportional to the difference.

What is subjective, is how those numbers translate down range in a given situation. But there can be no rational argument that assumes the smaller will equal or out perform the larger, all else being equal.

Other factors and constraints such as recoil, costs, etc are certainly important and should be weighed. However, those factors may also affect desired end goal.

The question is, where are the priorities?
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  #91  
Old 03-12-2013, 03:25 PM
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Re: 7mm Rem Mag

Got to go with dakor!! To southpa, choose the one you feel more comfortable with! Shoot it, reload for it(if you choose too),get the feel for it! 7mm mag,300win mag, both are good choices. Whichever you choose, I wish you the very best of luck an very best results for whatever you choose to pursue in the field!! Good Hunting!!

DT
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