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308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

 
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  #29  
Old 11-30-2009, 01:17 PM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

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Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas View Post
A slight correction here; the development of the 308/7.62x51 had nothing to do with the military wanting to reduce recoil, but case length. The original battle waged by Col. Rene Studler centered on developing a.30 cal cartridge that had (essentially) the same power as the existing .30-06 Military cartridge. In effect, that's what was acheived. The sniping versions of these two rounds used the exact same bullet for many years, the 173 grain FMJBT. In the M72 (30-06) the velocity was 2640 @ 78 ft, while the M118 (7.62x51) was only about 100 fps less, 2550 fps @ 78 ft. Performance in the field was virtually indistinguishable from one another. With the lighter 150/147 grain FMJs, perormance was almost identical. The real reason for the development of the .308 lay in its almost .5" shorter case design. For military weapons production, this has huge advantages. Weapons can be made much lighter, reliability is increased, the ammunition is lighter and the soldier can carry more, etc.. The 7.62 also uses about 5-7 grains less powder to achieve very similar performance. Not much of a concern for you or I, but it makes a tremendous difference to the military. Stop and consider that during Vietnam, Lake City Army Ammunition Plant was cranking out some 21 million rounds of ammo a day, and that was just one ammo plant in operation at that time. As you can see, that 5-7 grains suddenly becomes pretty significant.

The .308/7.62 is inherently more accurate than the .30-06, but we're talking about a pretty minor difference, and that averaged over a great many rifles. Rest assured, there's plenty of .30-06s out there that will outshoot plenty of .308s, but we're talking about individual rifles here. I wouldn't lose sleep over it, especially if I had a .30-06 that shot really well.

They're both good, and they've both done a prety good job for a lot of folks over the decades.



Good post and spot on.....
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  #30  
Old 11-30-2009, 01:44 PM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

Maybe, But throughout several wars and conflict my granfather led several brigades and the troops all had the same complaint: Hurt's my shoulder boss. My grandfather issued many complaints to higher officers. A couple years later the .308 was in ther're hands.
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  #31  
Old 11-30-2009, 01:51 PM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

The bottom line is that both calibers (308 and 06) are very fine calibers. Nobody here can argue about the succes of either be it in competition, the battle grounds or on this site. Both have shared tremendous success in many areas.

We can argue all day about which qualities are better which is essentially what we have been doing. Actually I prefer to think of it as sharing ideas and points of views versus arguing.

Each have better qualities over the other in different aspects. NIETHER prove the other superior to the other when you concider all aspects of what makes a good cartridge.

Good thread!
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  #32  
Old 11-30-2009, 01:58 PM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

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Originally Posted by linksmechanic View Post
Maybe, But throughout several wars and conflict my granfather led several brigades and the troops all had the same complaint: Hurt's my shoulder boss. My grandfather issued many complaints to higher officers. A couple years later the .308 was in ther're hands.


Stcok dimensions play a huge roll in felt recoil. A poor fitting stock on a 308 was one the visious kicking rifles that I have fired and that includes a 505 Gibbs
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  #33  
Old 11-30-2009, 02:07 PM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

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Originally Posted by linksmechanic View Post
Maybe, But throughout several wars and conflict my granfather led several brigades and the troops all had the same complaint: Hurt's my shoulder boss. My grandfather issued many complaints to higher officers. A couple years later the .308 was in ther're hands.
Well, for what it's worth, the original specs that the ordnance corps called for in the early M14 design was a 6.5 lb rifle, selective fire, and chambered for the then-new T65 (308/7.62) cartridge. They actually achieved this in the prototypes, and the gun saw some field trials. In the original reports from the testing, they stated (with wonderful military clairity) that "when fired full-auto, the rifle is dismayingly unmanageable." Gee, ya think!? A rifle about the same weight as an M1 Carbine, chambered for a full powered .308 cartridge on full auto? You can take my turn, I'll pass! Ultimately, as finally adopted, the M14 was very close to the same weight as the M1 Garand that it replaced. Kicked about the same, too. At least, I've never noticed any significant difference between the two, and I've fired a bunch of them over the years.

You want to read the full account here (and a very interesting one it is!) check out "U.S. Rifle M14: from John Garand to the M21" from Collector Grade Publications. Some really great history stuff there.
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  #34  
Old 11-30-2009, 08:34 PM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

IMHO-I don't think recoil had anything to do with the advent of the 308 but, to be fair, Linkmechanic may have a creditable source to back up his claim. If so I would be open minded and interested in reviewing it.
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  #35  
Old 12-01-2009, 02:17 AM
JRu JRu is offline
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

My experience with 30-06:



This is a completely stock Sako TRG-S , with a selected ( factory ) 23" barrel. Top safe velocity for 190SMK was achieved with 63.6 grains of N560, 2870 fps ( 2900fps was touched with a slightly stouter load but even this one is tough on Norma brass ). I honestly can't see any .308 match that, especially with identical barrel lengths. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see 3000+ with a 26" barrel. And if there's an "inherently more accurate" caliber out there, I seriously want to have one...



My old "standard load" : 190 SMK N150 5 shots 165 yards ( 150 meters ) < 0.4 MOA c-to-c



Load development test: 190 SMK N550 3 shots 165 yards ( 150 meters ) 1/4 MOA c-to-c



Load development test ( same load than above, shot on a different day ) : 190 SMK N550 3 shots 165 yards ( 150 meters ) < 0.2 MOA c-to-c



Load development test: 190 SMK N560 3 shots 165 yards ( 150 meters ) < 1/4 MOA c-to-c , this is the 2870fps load


I can't see myself shooting ( prone, on bipod w/ sand sock ) any better with any packing weight rifle that has a hunting stock and a 3-12x scope with fixed parallax.

My take on 30-06 is that it offers good barrel life and accuracy combined with a wide selection of bullet weights, its Achille's Heel is really the 100- year burden of old rifles, thus low CIP/SAAMI pressures. With a modern rifle it can be made to reach quite a bit further. I don't think it's "practically the same as .308Win just in long action" , but YMMV.
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