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308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

 
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  #92  
Old 03-14-2013, 08:50 AM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

In my 308 I use 43gr of imr 8208xbr with a win mag primer and a 168gr amax. With a 155gr amax I use 47gr of varget and a cci large rifle primer. That is for both 308. With no pressure signs. The a bolt 30-06 uses a 155gr amax with 54gr of blc-2 and a win mag primer. The weatherby vangaurd uses a 168gr sierra gameking with 57.5gr imr 4350 and a cci large rifle primer. All guns have 24inch barrels except my 308 which had a 26. All 4 rifles were shot through the same chrono by the same guy within minutes of each other. I agree that with more case capacity the 06 should shoot a little faster but that is not the case with these particular rifles.
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  #93  
Old 03-14-2013, 09:27 AM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

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Originally Posted by luke View Post
I agree that with more case capacity the 06 should shoot a little faster but that is not the case with these particular rifles.
I don't think it's the rifles that make that difference. It's the loads. Without accurate pressure data (numbers and curve shapes) for all the loads used, the comparison's not valid in my opinion.

Visible changes one sees in cases and primers are the least accurate way to measure pressure. There's no metalurgy standards that every case and primer cup maker follows to the letter. It's a rubber ruler.

Having fired hundreds of 7.62 NATO "proof" loads at about 65,000 CUP and the cases look no different than standard loads with the same case, primer and powder charge producing 50,000 CUP fired in the same barrel, that pretty much shows what a 15,000 CUP difference can show in cartridge appearance. The difference between loads was 172-gr. FMJBT bullets were used in the proof loads and 147-gr. FMJBT bullets used in the standard load.
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  #94  
Old 03-14-2013, 10:28 AM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

I read a book a while back about a Marine Sniper in Vietnam. He was shooting the Model 70 30-06. When they took it away and gave him the Rem 700 in 308 he didn't like it because he lost 200 yards. He never said anything about one being more accurate. He just just didn't have the range he did with the 30-06. I can see why they changed from 30-06 to 308 to 223. We could carry more ammo. But for snipping I can't see why they would want to short change them? Hathcock won Camp Perry with a 300 Mag. Why didn't they let all the snippers use the 300 mag back then? Don't make sense. At least now our snippers have the guns they need.
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  #95  
Old 03-14-2013, 11:15 AM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

I doubt Gunny Hathcock lost 200 yards in range going from the .30-06 M72 round to the 7.62 NATO M118 rounds. Both rounds used in Viet Nam used 172-gr. FMJBT match bullets. The difference in range where the .30-06 bullet's moving 1222 fps at 1000 yards and the same bullet from the NATO round's only about 50 yards; it's moving at 1222 fps at 950 yards.

While the Gunny may have said that, in 1971 at the Interservice Rifle Matches he told me he liked his old, near shot out .30-06 because he knew very well the trigger's feel and letoff as well as the round's adjustments for different ranges and wind with bullets coming from it in the lot of ammo he used. He didn't like the Rem. 700's triggers at all. When the USMC unit at Quantico tested his rifle after he retired, it shot his lot of match ammo into about 18 or more inches at 1000 yards; the barrel was somewhat eroded in its throat. The Rem 700's in 7.62 NATO shot about 10 inches at 1000 with a good lot of M118 match ammo according to the USMC rifle team members I talked with back then about their new sniper rifle.

In the late '60's the USN Match Conditioning Unit in San Diego came up with a round for a sniping cartidge. A .30-.338 Win. Mag. with its belt and rim turned down to body diameter and a new extractor groove cut. Called the .30 Super, it had the same great 1/2 MOA accuracy at 1000 yards as its parent case but without all the accuracy headaches of the belt. The other services were shooting .30-.338's in long range matches winning and setting records, but the powers to be said no, they'd use the 7.62 NATO match round.
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  #96  
Old 03-14-2013, 11:44 AM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart B View Post
I doubt Gunny Hathcock lost 200 yards in range going from the .30-06 M72 round to the 7.62 NATO M118 rounds. Both rounds used in Viet Nam used 172-gr. FMJBT match bullets. The difference in range where the .30-06 bullet's moving 1222 fps at 1000 yards and the same bullet from the NATO round's only about 50 yards; it's moving at 1222 fps at 950 yards.

While the Gunny may have said that, in 1971 at the Interservice Rifle Matches he told me he liked his old, near shot out .30-06 because he knew very well the trigger's feel and letoff as well as the round's adjustments for different ranges and wind with bullets coming from it in the lot of ammo he used. He didn't like the Rem. 700's triggers at all. When the USMC unit at Quantico tested his rifle after he retired, it shot his lot of match ammo into about 18 or more inches at 1000 yards; the barrel was somewhat eroded in its throat. The Rem 700's in 7.62 NATO shot about 10 inches at 1000 with a good lot of M118 match ammo according to the USMC rifle team members I talked with back then about their new sniper rifle.

In the late '60's the USN Match Conditioning Unit in San Diego came up with a round for a sniping cartidge. A .30-.338 Win. Mag. with its belt and rim turned down to body diameter and a new extractor groove cut. Called the .30 Super, it had the same great 1/2 MOA accuracy at 1000 yards as its parent case but without all the accuracy headaches of the belt. The other services were shooting .30-.338's in long range matches winning and setting records, but the powers to be said no, they'd use the 7.62 NATO match round.
It was not Hathcock That said said he lost 200 yards. I was reading about another Marine snipper I don't remember his name but I think the name of the book was Dead Center. This guy was saying he didn't like the 308 because he lost some range . That is all I know.
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  #97  
Old 03-14-2013, 11:45 AM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

There's no doubt that at max potential for each the 30-06 will have higher velocities. That being the case, the 308 today, with modern powders and such, can far out perform what the 30-06 could do 25 years ago. With the insane accuracy, consistency, high BC projectiles and higher velocities than ever before, the 308 is a serious LR round. Be it match, hunting or sniping. With the excellent modern day capabilities, my opinion is that if you make the switch to a long action, make it worth your while. Go for a 300 win.

25 years ago with the bullets and powders available it took the large magnums to hit the 1000' pound mark at 1000 yards. Now there are 308 loads that hit with 1000 pounds at 1000 yards. Granted, this is the upper limits but illustrates how far we've come with bullet design and velocities.

My current primary 308 is a true SAMMI spec rifle. It shoots federal gold medal match ammo right at 2600'sec. Right where it's suppose to. I have no interest in pushing hot hand loads through it. My hunting 308 has fired 168 amax's @ 2950fps with double base powders and a 26" barrel with 1/4 MOA accuracy and zilch for pressure signs. even using cheap cases. It's also peaked over 2700 with the 200smk. 25 years ago this was a pipe dream for either of these cartridges. I decided it seemed morally wrong to push the 168s to 2950 so I settled on 2833fps as my go to load for that weight. Still higher that thought possible back then.
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  #98  
Old 03-14-2013, 02:48 PM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnwhip View Post
It was not Hathcock That said said he lost 200 yards. I was reading about another Marine snipper I don't remember his name but I think the name of the book was Dead Center. This guy was saying he didn't like the 308 because he lost some range . That is all I know.
"Dead Center" was Ed Kugler's account of his two years as a Marine scout-sniper in Vietnam.

I've known a few snipers on USN SEAL teams and most of them are a bit ignorant (not stupid nor dumb) about down range ballistics. A former SEAL Team Commander I used to shoot matches with feels the same way about them as well as other service branch snipers, but they're sneaky guys and good shots in spite of all their technical shortcommings.
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