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308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

 
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  #78  
Old 09-08-2012, 11:35 AM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

do you want chocolate or dark chocolate frosting on your cake, which one is better, their all chocolate and all yummiez
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Keep in mind the animals we shoot for food and display are not bullet proof. Contrary to popular belief, they bleed and die just like they did a hundred years ago. Being competent with a given rifle is far more important than impressive ballistics and poor shootability. High velocity misses never put a steak in the freezer.

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  #79  
Old 09-08-2012, 03:20 PM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

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Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
It isn't better in any way.
There are those who know otherwise. Accuracy, for one way.

Until mid 1963, the only cartridge used for regular high power rifle matches was the .30-06. While the rule stated only 30 caliber rifles could be used, but nobody had chosen the .308 Win. over the century + old cartridge. One person finally did in late summer 1963. He won the Nationals with that .308 Win barrel.; the only one on the firing line. And others immediately switched to the .308 Win. as the cartridge of choice. I think Sierra Bullets had switched to the .308 Win. case to test virtually all their 30 caliber bullets weighing less than 190 grains by then; a 30 caliber magnum case was used for testing 190's and heavier ones.

Within 3 years, virtually all the records held with the .30-06 cartridge were bested by the .308 Win. No wonder as the most accurate .30-06's at the time would keep all their shots inside 6 inches at 600 yards. With the same stock, action and barrel's bore and groove dimensions, the .308 Win. easily would shoot the same bullets into 4 inches or less; the only difference was the chamber and case used. It got hard to break ties fired in competition so the NRA changed the scoring rings to smaller dimensions in 1966. Even the USN and USAF 7.62 NATO converted M1 service rifles rebuilt for competition shot more accurate than the best .30-06 ones. If the .30-06 really was more accurate, then it would have stuck around in the hands of the best shots to be in the winner's circle for much longer.

While a 100 fps difference in bullet velocity between the '06 and .308 is at hand, both can shoot any weight 30 caliber bullet. But the .308 chamber needs a longer throat for bullets heavier than 200 grains to do well. Insignificant for live targets.
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  #80  
Old 09-08-2012, 04:52 PM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart B View Post
There are those who know otherwise. Accuracy, for one way.

Until mid 1963, the only cartridge used for regular high power rifle matches was the .30-06. While the rule stated only 30 caliber rifles could be used, but nobody had chosen the .308 Win. over the century + old cartridge. One person finally did in late summer 1963. He won the Nationals with that .308 Win barrel.; the only one on the firing line. And others immediately switched to the .308 Win. as the cartridge of choice. I think Sierra Bullets had switched to the .308 Win. case to test virtually all their 30 caliber bullets weighing less than 190 grains by then; a 30 caliber magnum case was used for testing 190's and heavier ones.

Within 3 years, virtually all the records held with the .30-06 cartridge were bested by the .308 Win. No wonder as the most accurate .30-06's at the time would keep all their shots inside 6 inches at 600 yards. With the same stock, action and barrel's bore and groove dimensions, the .308 Win. easily would shoot the same bullets into 4 inches or less; the only difference was the chamber and case used. It got hard to break ties fired in competition so the NRA changed the scoring rings to smaller dimensions in 1966. Even the USN and USAF 7.62 NATO converted M1 service rifles rebuilt for competition shot more accurate than the best .30-06 ones. If the .30-06 really was more accurate, then it would have stuck around in the hands of the best shots to be in the winner's circle for much longer.

While a 100 fps difference in bullet velocity between the '06 and .308 is at hand, both can shoot any weight 30 caliber bullet. But the .308 chamber needs a longer throat for bullets heavier than 200 grains to do well. Insignificant for live targets.
Those who "know" know comparing bench rest competition to hunting situations is stupid at best.

Both rounds are capable of extreme accuracy, and the 06 will do it with slightly higher velocities and heavier bullets.
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  #81  
Old 09-08-2012, 05:19 PM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

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Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
Those who "know" know comparing bench rest competition to hunting situations is stupid at best.
High power rifle matches are fired in standing, sitting or kneeling and prone positions with the rifle held against ones shoulder without any artificial support. They use a sling in all positions except standing. They shoot both slow and rapid fire matches at 100, 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards; slow fire only at 800, 900 and 1000 yards. All with the same cartridge if they choose the .308 Win. No scopes in standing, sitting or rapid fire at 300 and 800 and 900 yards. Scopes and metallic sights are used at 600 and 1000.

Benchrest matches are fired with the rifle resting atop something (that's artificial support) and is virtually untouched by humans except for a finger on their light-pull trigger. They shoot at similar ranges, but not with the same cartridge.

I wasn't comparing benchrest competition to hunting situations, now was I? That aside, some precision long range hunters take a portable table up in the mountains and shoot benchrest style at animals way over 1000 yards away with someone spotting their shots to tell them how much correction to make until the animal's nailed.

Quote:
Both rounds are capable of extreme accuracy, and the 06 will do it with slightly higher velocities and heavier bullets.
Thirty-ought-sixes are nowadays because of one minor change to the chamber dimensions. But back when the .308 took over in matches for a long time using typical field hunting positions, they were different.

Last edited by Bart B; 09-08-2012 at 06:44 PM.
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  #82  
Old 09-08-2012, 05:58 PM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart B View Post
High power rifle matches are fired in standing, sitting or kneeling and prone positions with the rifle held against ones shoulder without any artificial support. They use a sling in all positions except standing. They shoot both slow and rapid fire matches at 100, 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards; slow fire only at 800, 900 and 1000 yards. All with the same cartridge if they choose the .308 Win.

Benchrest matches are fired with the rifle resting atop something (that's artificial support) and is virtually untouched by humans except for a finger on their light-pull trigger. They shoot at similar ranges, but not with the same cartridge.

I wasn't comparing benchrest competition to hunting situations, now was I? That aside, some precision long range hunters take a portable table up in the mountains and shoot benchrest style at animals way over 1000 yards away with someone spotting their shots to tell them how much correction to make until the animal's nailed.

Thirty-ought-sixes are nowadays because of one minor change to the chamber dimensions. But back when the .308 took over in matches for a long time using typical field hunting positions, they were different.
Irrespective of the venue, matches are not hunting, nor do they in any way approximate hunting.

As for the rest modern powders have a lot to do with that as well and once again, we're discussing today, not what happened thirty years ago.
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  #83  
Old 09-08-2012, 06:54 PM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

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Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
Irrespective of the venue, matches are not hunting, nor do they in any way approximate hunting.
The cartridge, bullets and rifles don't know what they're being used for. They perform the same way in any shooting discipline.

Quote:
As for the rest modern powders have a lot to do with that as well and once again, we're discussing today, not what happened thirty years ago.
Then why did the US Army Advanced Marksmanship Unit recently pick the .308 cartridge for the new service rifle they chose to out perform the .223 Rem. and 5.56 NATO in long range competition? If the '06 really was superior with all the modern powders, bullets, primers and cases, they would have picked it.
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  #84  
Old 09-08-2012, 08:08 PM
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Re: 308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
It isn't better in any way.
God have mercy on us all. You have started a war.....

Regardless of which is "better" (subjective and not factual) when it comes to long range matches and long range hunting with 30 caliber sub magnums, the 308 is more popular than the 30-06 and I have never had an animal tell the difference. Dead is dead. Some have just died with a 'better' placed bullet than others.
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