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300 Win MAG to the brink?

 
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  #1  
Old 03-04-2009, 12:16 AM
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300 Win MAG to the brink?

After listening to 2 fools at the local shop talk about that show BOTW. I did some looking.

They claim the 7mm Mag is better than the 300Mag ( or RUM for that Matter) at long distances. And back this with single point of data. (which got me thinking)
They make all these claims on the fact that berger makes a 180gr .284 bullet with superman BC's.

Questions:

1. Is there a trade off point with the 300Win Mag where heavier bullet( Higher BC) starts to loose out to loss in initial velocity? I.E. 180gr traveling at 3100fps vs. 210gr at 2850fps.

2. Using the above logic couldn't all cartridges be compared on their "absolute best" combination of Highest BC bullet and velocity combo for longest range performance?

Possibly set a score system to find the distance at which terminal energy drops below 1000 ft-lbs as a universal end point?


Does this make any sense?
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  #2  
Old 03-04-2009, 01:35 AM
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Location: Alaska
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Re: 300 Win MAG to the brink?

I own and shoot both the 300 WM and the 7mm Rem Mag.

With 210 Berger VLDs in the 300 WM and 168 VLDs in the 7mm RM, I agree the 7mm Rem Mag has a slight ballistic advantage in that it starts with a higher muzzle velocity, has a slightly greater BC, which results in the 168 VLDs maintaining higher velocity at long range (1000 to 1100 yds). After bullet velocity decreases to below ~1700 fps, I believe I lack sufficient velocity to ensure bullet expansion on impact. That's how I reach my conclusion. The 7mm Rem Mag retains expansion velocity about 100 yds farther down range than my 300 WM. Both rounds have enough energy to drop an elk at extreme long range provided the bullets expand on impact.

However a 300 RUM will spank the 7mm Rem Mag no matter which way you analyze it. Expansion velocity retained to greater yardage and more retained energy as well.
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  #3  
Old 03-04-2009, 06:06 AM
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Re: 300 Win MAG to the brink?

Here's a good a good article about it ...

What's Wrong With .30 Caliber?

Ed
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  #4  
Old 03-04-2009, 12:54 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,534
Re: 300 Win MAG to the brink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DENWA View Post
After listening to 2 fools at the local shop talk about that show BOTW. I did some looking.

They claim the 7mm Mag is better than the 300Mag ( or RUM for that Matter) at long distances. And back this with single point of data. (which got me thinking)
They make all these claims on the fact that berger makes a 180gr .284 bullet with superman BC's.

Questions:

1. Is there a trade off point with the 300Win Mag where heavier bullet( Higher BC) starts to loose out to loss in initial velocity? I.E. 180gr traveling at 3100fps vs. 210gr at 2850fps.

2. Using the above logic couldn't all cartridges be compared on their "absolute best" combination of Highest BC bullet and velocity combo for longest range performance?

Possibly set a score system to find the distance at which terminal energy drops below 1000 ft-lbs as a universal end point?


Does this make any sense?
Most of the realy long range guys are turrent twisters and look for maximum down range
energy and accuracy.

Velocity and trajactory does play a part but in the end they chose energy at POI, wind bucking
ability and accuracy at longest yardages to be hunted.

I don't have the skills or the equiptment to ''HUNT'' much past 1500yrds so I use the ''Taylor
Knock Out Value '' system for the best results.==1000 ft/lbs for deer size game and 1500ft/lbs
for elk size game. with these numbers you can add or subtract based on the game to be
hunted (IE, Moose would require 2000 ft/lbs)for clean one shot kills.

You can kill all game with less energy but the results will vary more from shot to shot.

Armed with this information use ballistic charts that will go past your intended distance and
look at max distance to reach energy levels required for the game to be hunted and which
caliber and bullet combo is the best.

In other words if I go elk hunting and have a choice of rifles that will take an elk down hard
I would chose any 338 my next choice would be one of the big 30s and next would be a
magnum 7mm.

You can never have to much rifle only to little.

This process will separate the groupies from the rock stars.

Just the way I approach this decision.

J E CUSTOM
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  #5  
Old 03-04-2009, 08:13 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 59
Re: 300 Win MAG to the brink?

According to BOTW's True ballistic calculator:


1. 7mm Mag pushing a 168gr berger(.648BC) at 3000fps has at 1200 yds:

1200yds1503.7fps843.3ft-lbs88.8wind


2. 7mm Mag pushing a 180gr berger(.698BC) at 2800fps has at 1200 yds:

1200yds1457.9fps849.3ft-lbs89.2 wind

3. 300 Win Mag pushing a 210gr Sierra (.645BC) at 2800fps has at 1200 yds:

1200yds1376.5fps883.4ft-lbs99.2 wind

4. 300 Win Mag pushing a 240gr Sierra (.702BC) at 2600fps has at 1200 yds:

1200yds1340.2fps957.1ft-lbs98.9wind


Am I Confused? Or a little off on initial velocities?

I don't see a super difference here. to substantiate any claims of superiority.
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  #6  
Old 03-04-2009, 08:37 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Alaska
Posts: 3,491
Re: 300 Win MAG to the brink?

You would have to provide your definition of superior, in order to receive a meaningful response.

Your data demonstrates that the bullets fired from the 7mm RM retain higher velocity at long range than the bullets fired in the 300 WM. Which is why I claim the 7mm RM is effective for ~100 additional yards compared to the 300 WM. Impact velocity is critical to ensure expansion of hunting bullets that are designed to expand in game animals. Bullet expansion helps to ensure the bullet's energy is spent on the animal, rather than on the hillside behind the animal. If the bullet doesn't expand and all the bullet's energy is spent impacting the dirt on the far side of the animal, you better be really good at following blood trails.

If you're going to shoot animals with expanding-style bullets impacting at ~1350 fps, you better aim for their brain or central nervous system. If you can hit them in the brain or central nervous system @ 1200 yds you're all set.

Do you normally use full metal jacketed or other non-expanding bullets to shoot big game animals?

Last edited by phorwath; 03-05-2009 at 03:26 AM.
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  #7  
Old 03-04-2009, 09:33 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 59
Re: 300 Win MAG to the brink?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phorwath View Post
You would have to provide your definition of superior, in order receive a meaningful response.

Your data demonstrates that the bullets fired from the 7mm RM retain higher velocity at long range than the bullets fired in the 300 WM. Which is why I claim the 7mm RM is effective for ~100 additional yards compared to the 300 WM. Impact velocity is critical to ensure expansion of hunting bullets that are designed to expand in game animals. Bullet expansion helps to ensure the bullet's energy is spent on the animal, rather than on the hillside behind the animal. If the bullet doesn't expand and all the bullet's energy is spent impacting the dirt on the far side of the animal, you better be really good at following blood trails.

If you're going to shoot animals with expanding-style bullets impacting at ~1350 fps, you better aim for their brain or central nervous system. If you can hit them in the brain or central nervous system @ 1200 yds you're all set.

Do you normally use full metal jacketed or other non-expanding bullets to shoot big game animals?

Thank you. That explaination makes good sense to me.

I'm a man of science and common sense, not conjecture.

This type of insight is priceless.
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