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300 RUM vs 300 Dakota

 
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  #8  
Old 07-04-2012, 12:17 AM
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Re: 300 RUM vs 300 Dakota

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Originally Posted by jrsolocam View Post
Seems like every new round the last 25 years would qualify as that then...
No many of them fill very specific mareting niche's that didn't exist prior.

The short magnums allow for short actions with magnum performance.

Rounds like the 7mm STW and 7mm Rum, the 300 Rum, and many others have allowed for velocities never before achievable in their calibers with standardized rounds.

The Dakota Magnums don't do either, they just make their rifles more "unique" and more "custom".
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  #9  
Old 07-04-2012, 01:45 AM
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Re: 300 RUM vs 300 Dakota

I dunno...what does the RUM do that the 30-378 didn't already do?

I think the Dakota did/does fill a niche. It gives you 300 Weatherby performance in a standard/30-06 length action, and no belt. It gives you a 100-200 fps edge over a 300 Mag in a slightly shorter case. How isn't that an improvement or niche, like you mention? They made necking down the 404 Jeffrey cool, long before the RUM came along. They did just what you mentioned others did - they gave top-of-the-line performance for a given length action (better than 300 Mag), and matched the performance of some rounds which required a longer action (300 Weatherby).

Also, for bullets up to about 180 grains, they are very close in velocity to the RUM with 10-20 grains less powder. I had a very knowledgeable gunsmith who pointed all this out to me when doing a custom build for me a dozen years ago, and I ended up picking the Dakota for that reason. Why shoot 95 grains to get the same velocity 80 would give me in the Dakota? Except for the heavy, longer-range bullets, the Dakota really does hit a sweet spot of performance - to get the next 100 fps takes about 15-20 gr more powder with a 180 grain bullet and 26" or so tube. Now, if you shoot 220 gr+ and put 28"+ tubes, that changes, of course. However, for the average (not long-range) hunter - you are at near-RUM performance with 180 gr bullets and below, in a shorter, lighter action, and you have a lot less muzzle blast. What's not to like?

Now, if you'll look on another recent thread, you'll see I'm not a Dakota lover, in fact, I steered the guy to the Norma. This is the long-range forum, and if you are wanting to shoot the heavier bullets, the RUM certainly does pull away in performance vs. the Dakota. As I also pointed out, Dakota brass isn't great (up and down, depending on the mfg-of-the-day) and it's very pricey. For those two reasons, and the fact that since building it 10+ years ago I've figured out that sometimes the nice bulls stand at 900 yds vs. 600 yds. - I probably wouldn't choose it again. If I could get Lapua or even Norma brass for it (Norma did make some for 7mm and 338 for a while I think - but no more) - I'd like it more. If I was a "normal" 600 yd and less hunter and they had good brass - I'd almost definitely choose it over the RUM .

In any case, I'm not in love with the girl any more, but I still don't like to hear her falsely accused or slandered. (I did a LOT of homework on it - I didn't just take the smiths word.) I think it does fill a niche, or at least initially did, and I think if they had good brass it would be an excellent cartridge for 700 yds and less, and the 7mm Dakota would be awesome for deer. However, now...you take a round that isn't the fastest, isn't factory chambered, and doesn't have good brass - no matter how good or well-balanced for caliber...the outlook doesn't look rosy.
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  #10  
Old 07-04-2012, 02:06 AM
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Re: 300 RUM vs 300 Dakota

Quote:
Originally Posted by aspenbugle View Post
I dunno...what does the RUM do that the 30-378 didn't already do?

I think the Dakota did/does fill a niche. It gives you 300 Weatherby performance in a standard/30-06 length action, and no belt. It gives you a 100-200 fps edge over a 300 Mag in a slightly shorter case. How isn't that an improvement or niche, like you mention? They made necking down the 404 Jeffrey cool, long before the RUM came along. They did just what you mentioned others did - they gave top-of-the-line performance for a given length action (better than 300 Mag), and matched the performance of some rounds which required a longer action (300 Weatherby).

Also, for bullets up to about 180 grains, they are very close in velocity to the RUM with 10-20 grains less powder. I had a very knowledgeable gunsmith who pointed all this out to me when doing a custom build for me a dozen years ago, and I ended up picking the Dakota for that reason. Why shoot 95 grains to get the same velocity 80 would give me in the Dakota? Except for the heavy, longer-range bullets, the Dakota really does hit a sweet spot of performance - to get the next 100 fps takes about 15-20 gr more powder with a 180 grain bullet and 26" or so tube. Now, if you shoot 220 gr+ and put 28"+ tubes, that changes, of course. However, for the average (not long-range) hunter - you are at near-RUM performance with 180 gr bullets and below, in a shorter, lighter action, and you have a lot less muzzle blast. What's not to like?

Now, if you'll look on another recent thread, you'll see I'm not a Dakota lover, in fact, I steered the guy to the Norma. This is the long-range forum, and if you are wanting to shoot the heavier bullets, the RUM certainly does pull away in performance vs. the Dakota. As I also pointed out, Dakota brass isn't great (up and down, depending on the mfg-of-the-day) and it's very pricey. For those two reasons, and the fact that since building it 10+ years ago I've figured out that sometimes the nice bulls stand at 900 yds vs. 600 yds. - I probably wouldn't choose it again. If I could get Lapua or even Norma brass for it (Norma did make some for 7mm and 338 for a while I think - but no more) - I'd like it more. If I was a "normal" 600 yd and less hunter and they had good brass - I'd almost definitely choose it over the RUM .

In any case, I'm not in love with the girl any more, but I still don't like to hear her falsely accused or slandered. (I did a LOT of homework on it - I didn't just take the smiths word.) I think it does fill a niche, or at least initially did, and I think if they had good brass it would be an excellent cartridge for 700 yds and less, and the 7mm Dakota would be awesome for deer. However, now...you take a round that isn't the fastest, isn't factory chambered, and doesn't have good brass - no matter how good or well-balanced for caliber...the outlook doesn't look rosy.
Nobody is being slandered so please don't make such silly accusations.

As for the bolded part, that would be the point. They are a custom maker who produced their own wildcat to chamber in their own rifles which is exactly the point I made to begin with. Either the 300wm or 300 Rum will fill the same exact needs for far less cost in either rifles or ammuntion/components.

As for the rest, belt or no belt is not an issue. Belted magnums perform extremely well millions of times every year. The idea that the belt makes a cartidge somehow inferior is foolish on it's face.

As for the 30-378 vs 300 RUM, the rum gives nearly the same velocities and performance with 20% less powder, much lower recoil, and factory ammunition at half the price along with very easy to come by and reasonably priced components for reloading.
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  #11  
Old 07-04-2012, 03:49 AM
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Re: 300 RUM vs 300 Dakota

WildRose - Again, I don't think I or anyone ever made the argument that is was the cheapest or the fastest - in fact, I, myself, pointed out both aren't true. I agree completely. JRSolocam was not asking for the fastest, best or cheapest, he was asking if it was true if it actually did nearly equal the RUM with less powder (the same concept you point out of your RUM vs the 30-378). You then called the 300 Dakota "nothingmore than a marketing gimmick" and that is where I took exception and offered some justification for my position.

I don't love the brass/cost, but I give the round, and Don Allen a bit more credit for what he created than that. Look over in "Rifles, Bullets..." where right now they are asking Len Backus about his 3, 7mm Dakotas. Lots of people have Dakota chambered rifles, and like them. To call them nothing more than a marketing gimmick is complete hogwash - but to each his own I guess.

I agree the belt is no big deal - look at the 308 Baer accuracy etc. I agree the RUM, 300WM, 30-378, 300 Norma Mag, and several others will all do the same job, and for cheaper, and have factory chamberings for most, some factory ammo for most. I agree. Not the point - you just said the 300 Dakota was a pointless, useless, marketing gimmick, which I disagree with, and which I think JRSolocam's initial post alluded to -- it seems to be very efficient in certain loads and configurations (he wasn't asking about cheapest components).

It still bests a 300 WM in the same action. Shooting 100-200 fps faster in the same length action with a good case design--isn't a marketing gimmick. If so, then the RUM is a gimmick compared to the Dakota. In fact, you have to get a bigger action and use a lot more powder in the RUM to best the Dakota. The Dakota doesn't have to do that to best the 300 WM - so it is a slam-dunk performance choice there (fills a niche). The first part of why you justify the RUM over the 30-378, is exactly what makes the Dakota special in it's niche. What the RUM does to the 30-378 efficiency-wise, the Dakota does to the RUM. YES, it is missing the cheap component part - agree, but that isn't what JRSolocam was asking about - he wanted to know about performance only. Performance dictates whether it is a good round or not, cost and other factors help determine if it is a good, wise choice to chamber a gun in - let's don't confuse the two. If Remington came out with it, chambered rifles for it, and made cheap brass for it, it may be a much wiser choice in a cost-effective chambering to use - but that wouldn't change how well it performed. I think it's performance speaks for itself - it's a very good performing round. It's cost, brass quality, etc., likely may not make it a wise choice for many, when cost, brass etc. favors other cartridges so much. I agree 100% there.

JRSolocam - Sorry for the rabbit trail. I can't fully answer your question. I've been with 200 gr and less due to barrel twist. I know I've seen this true for bullets near 180 grains that many times I'd get velocities about the same with much less powder, which agree with the software and Barnes Reloading etc. Everything I've seen, read, heard (not personally measured) is at least at 215gr, 230 gr, the RUM can do 100-200 fps faster, but will also be using 15-20 gr more powder. In any case, I wouldn't think it could still be nearly matching the RUM at those bullet weights unless you were only using a 24" barrel or something. Hopefully someone who's actually shot some of the heavier bullets in their Dakota can chime in. BTW, Barnes shows 2908 fps with 75.5 gr of RL22 in a 24" barrel for the Dakota with 220 gr bullets. Their numbers always seemed pretty good compared to what I saw (vs. the Nosler manual (wimpy)), but thats a pretty short barrel too. What barrel length were you plugging in?
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  #12  
Old 07-04-2012, 04:23 AM
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Re: 300 RUM vs 300 Dakota

Quote:
Originally Posted by aspenbugle View Post
WildRose - Again, I don't think I or anyone ever made the argument that is was the cheapest or the fastest - in fact, I, myself, pointed out both aren't true. I agree completely. JRSolocam was not asking for the fastest, best or cheapest, he was asking if it was true if it actually did nearly equal the RUM with less powder (the same concept you point out of your RUM vs the 30-378). You then called the 300 Dakota "nothingmore than a marketing gimmick" and that is where I took exception and offered some justification for my position. ...
It is as I described. A wildcat round created by a custom manufacturer for their custom rifles, brass etc. They were the only one's chambering for it and providing the brass for a good long while.

More power to them and to those who enjoy shooting a "unique" wildcat and custom rifle, but my friend, it is what it is.
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  #13  
Old 07-04-2012, 08:40 AM
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Re: 300 RUM vs 300 Dakota

aspenbugle,

No need to apologize for the "rabbit trail", I enjoyed reading your thoughts and agree with them. Certain cartridge families, mainly Weatherby, Dakota and Lazzeroni get some folks fired up! As for filling a niche or not, whats wrong with more competition all along the price/performance curve? We as consumers benefit.

I used 28" for the RUM and 26" for the Dakota. I used powders I have on hand for the Dakota; H4831sc, R22, Magnum, 7828ssc & MagPro. For the RUM i used Retumbo, H1000 and Magnum. Loaded to the neck/shoulder junction and equal pressues. They were very close. Knowing this is software and every rifle is a bit different, I was just looking for input if any members had direct experience with these two.

Thanks, and everyone enjoy the 4th, and remember why we celebrate it!
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  #14  
Old 07-04-2012, 11:38 PM
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Re: 300 RUM vs 300 Dakota

jrsolocam,

I was thinking (I know - scares me too sometimes). Just because I can't accurately shoot the heavier bullets at range with my 12 twist Krieger, doesn't mean I can't shoot them across the chrony, right? If you don't get any bites/answers let's keep in touch and I'll load some up and give'er a try. I may have to ask you for some loads from your program and we'll cross check them and work up to them to verify they are OK and I can give you the results. I'm not promising 100 different combos mind you - remember the brass is pricey . Hopefully, someone has already been there and done that and will save us both the hassle.

Wildrose - sounds like you just don't like wildcat/custom rounds. That's cool. It's a free country; I respect that. You should have just said that to start with. I also agree that many of those wildcats are more marketing that substance, where they basically make some insignificant tweak to something and stick a new name on it. If customers like it, and they sell guns, I guess it's fine, but I agree I also don't see the point sometimes. However, I wouldn't call EVERY "wildcat round created by a custom manufacturer for their custom rifles, brass etc. They were the only one's chambering for it and providing the brass for a good long while" marketing gimmicks. I think many of Kirby's, Baer's, Dave Vier's custom chambering like their .338-.408 variations fit exactly what you describe - that doesn't make them simple marketing gimmicks. There is some substantial ground-breaking going on with some willdcats. If I'm not mistaken, most of the best rounds ever "invented" started somewhere first as a wildcat. I see you like your factory 300 RUM Sendero II (nice pics). But, just because Big Green doesn't sell the Dakota or 338 Big Baer or 338 AM at Wal Mart doesn't mean you have to be a hater. Yes, "they are what they are" unique and wildcat - true, certainly not everyone's cup of tea, but it's not fair to equate that to worthless, valueless gimmicks. Oh well, moving on...

Happy 4th! Our fireworks are all cancelled - seems nature overloaded us here in CO with her own fireworks last week here near C-Springs.
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