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180 Berger VLD expansion mystery

 
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  #50  
Old 12-09-2013, 01:53 PM
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Re: 180 Berger VLD expansion mystery

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Originally Posted by bigngreen View Post
I looked at that Mark but it's not what I'm talking about, I'll have to look back at my pictures but the exit in the hide on the bull I killed this year looked like a 1.5 in tear and did not have a ragged/puckered edge to and it's very easy to see the bullet came out side ways. To me the exit on this buck looked normal for a bullet that almost vaporized and only the base cup and some frag blew out the hole OR only the tip blew and the shank and some frag blew the hole out.
When we shot all those super hard 6.5 bullets this year we actually would catch them exiting backwards in jugs and every one tumbled but NONE tumbled till we passed 600 yards with them and the impact speed dropped. We would find perfect little mushrooms on the tops of the shanks so basically the nose would blow.
Yes, but that IS what I a talking about Now like I said before, I am not 100% certain the bullet tumbled and did not fragment. But the shape and condition of the flesh exit are not consistent, (from my limited experience), with fragmenting bullet performance AND the fragments that caused the exit hole should have been under the hide and very easy to detect. Maybe they were overlooked, but either they exited the hide with the piece that left the hide exit or they were left under the hide... one or the other.

In your case the tumbled bullet left an elongated hide hole. In this case it might have arrived at the hide sideways and stretched the hide while still tumbling until the point or tail punched through. A bit of a stretch for an explanation, but from where I am sitting and what I have seen, the best explanation so far.
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  #51  
Old 12-09-2013, 01:59 PM
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Re: 180 Berger VLD expansion mystery

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
Not sure what you mean by cavitate? But if you replace cavitate with tumble, this is the theory I'm leaning toward. In the case of your bullets peeing back, did they hit bone like this one? I'm finding it hard to grasp that the exposed lead core was not deformed enough after hitting bone not to leave a large hide exit.
Yaw/pitch basically where the tip is slowed and the tail is moving up and down or side to side not quite tipping over enough to tumble completely. I've see bullets for example that hit a twig just short of a target go through the target side ways and if you watch enough slow motion video of ballistic gel tests you'll see some bullets exhibiting that effect. I've also seen them just end up rolling over with the front and rear having swapped ends. Energy seeks the path of least resistance so it just doesn't always maintain that straight line attitude all the way through. Think about a car with weak rear brakes and normal front brakes on ice. You get on the brakes lightly and the rear end fishtails and the car then may end up sideways till it finally comes to a stop.
Quote:
My thoughts are that this bullet may have tumbled and when it reached the hide, it stretched it until all the pressure on the hide was being exerted by the point or tail in the tumbling process, then punched through.
We may both be thinking the same thing and just not expressing it quite the same.

Quote:
OK, so for a recap,

The OP didn't find any bullet frags, but wasn't looking for any and can't say for sure that there weren't any.

Obviously the bullet did not "pencil" through so it either fragmented or tumbled.
Ditto.

Quote:
The flesh exit and hide exit do not match in size and shape. If the bullet fragmented leaving that large of flesh exit, there should have been bullet frags under the hide which IMO, the OP should have noticed even if he wasn't looking for them. There should have also been small bits of bullet frags in the flesh of the exit hole.

The flesh exit shape is also a little odd in that it is not round which would be more consistent with fragmentation. It is more like a linear tear which is more consistent with an elongated shaped object in a sideways position.
We are on the same path... .

Quote:
I am not 100% certain but my tentative conclusion is that there was no expansion as there were no frags at all found. Even though the OP wasn't looking for frags, IMO he should have found some, especially under the hide at the exit.
Not quite with you there. I think it could be that or there was a peeling back of the petals so to speak without them tearing off. Slight mushroomig without any significant bullet break up.

Lots of possibilities and we just can't nail it down without looking at a recovered bullet.
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Last edited by WildRose; 12-09-2013 at 02:59 PM.
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  #52  
Old 12-09-2013, 02:09 PM
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Re: 180 Berger VLD expansion mystery

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
Yes, but that IS what I a talking about Now like I said before, I am not 100% certain the bullet tumbled and did not fragment. But the shape and condition of the flesh exit are not consistent, (from my limited experience), with fragmenting bullet performance AND the fragments that caused the exit hole should have been under the hide and very easy to detect. Maybe they were overlooked, but either they exited the hide with the piece that left the hide exit or they were left under the hide... one or the other.

In your case the tumbled bullet left an elongated hide hole. In this case it might have arrived at the hide sideways and stretched the hide while still tumbling until the point or tail punched through. A bit of a stretch for an explanation, but from where I am sitting and what I have seen, the best explanation so far.
One more.

I've seen through these threads a few of the bullets that did not open, but did "bend" into something approaching a crescent shape. Such a bullet would end up coming out side ways in a lot of cases rather than tumbling end to end.
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  #53  
Old 12-09-2013, 02:27 PM
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Re: 180 Berger VLD expansion mystery

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Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
One more.

I've seen through these threads a few of the bullets that did not open, but did "bend" into something approaching a crescent shape. Such a bullet would end up coming out side ways in a lot of cases rather than tumbling end to end.
A bullet like the 180 VLD would certainly have bent if it started to tumble, especially if it hit bone (twice), Whether or not it could have oriented point or tail first on the way out, I don't know but for me at this point, it's the best plausible answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildRose View Post

Lots of possibilities and we just can't nail it down without looking at a recovered bullet.
I assume you meant to type "can't" and if so, that pretty much sums it up, although, if the OP would have found fragments, this thread would have ended a couple of pages ago.
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  #54  
Old 12-09-2013, 02:45 PM
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Re: 180 Berger VLD expansion mystery

To my knowledge and recollection, the banana bullets have always (or primarily) been low velocity impacts. Always, with respect to Elkaholic's expansion testing of Berger VLDs. A member in the NW Territory recovered a 210 VLD from a smallish bull moose at long range (like 880 yds) from a 300 Win Mag and he provided photos of a banana bullet. The bullet that struck this deer was from a 7mm RUM at high velocity. It hit bone both upon entrance and again just before exit. Dunno what the strikes on leg bones does to the banana bullet theory. But Elkaholic has repeatedly recovered banana shaped VLDs at impact velocity less than ~2000 fps in the media he's tested them on.

Striking bone at high velocity should have sheared off at least the leading hollow jacket tip on this VLD.
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  #55  
Old 12-09-2013, 02:58 PM
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Re: 180 Berger VLD expansion mystery

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
A bullet like the 180 VLD would certainly have bent if it started to tumble, especially if it hit bone (twice), Whether or not it could have oriented point or tail first on the way out, I don't know but for me at this point, it's the best plausible answer.



I assume you meant to type "can't" and if so, that pretty much sums it up, although, if the OP would have found fragments, this thread would have ended a couple of pages ago.
Yep, Dang it, I'll fix that.
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  #56  
Old 12-09-2013, 03:09 PM
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Re: 180 Berger VLD expansion mystery

I shot my first buck at about 30yds with a 270 wsm topped with what I believe was a 168 grain Berger, I did not hit any bone on the way in penciled threw the lungs, what was most interesting to me was I could stick my thumb threw the heart.
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