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180 Berger VLD expansion mystery

 
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  #43  
Old 12-09-2013, 04:52 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Elk Garden,WVa
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Re: 180 Berger VLD expansion mystery

Thanks again guys for all the input.

Getting off here now. I'm off next 3 days with No computer access.
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  #44  
Old 12-09-2013, 11:43 AM
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Location: South of Canada and North of Wyoming
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Re: 180 Berger VLD expansion mystery

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
Another thought on your wound channel and exit.

Sometimes a bullet which does not expand and is not badly deformed will cavitate after penetration and then either correct or flip over before exit which would still produce a caliber size or even smaller exit. Remember bullets generally don't cut through the hide they push it till it just won't stretch any more and then the bullet pushes through and this can happen both on entry and exit. I've seen lots and lots of entry wounds smaller than the caliber used and some exit wounds as well.
Not sure what you mean by cavitate? But if you replace cavitate with tumble, this is the theory I'm leaning toward. In the case of your bullets peeing back, did they hit bone like this one? I'm finding it hard to grasp that the exposed lead core was not deformed enough after hitting bone not to leave a large hide exit.

My thoughts are that this bullet may have tumbled and when it reached the hide, it stretched it until all the pressure on the hide was being exerted by the point or tail in the tumbling process, then punched through.

OK, so for a recap,

The OP didn't find any bullet frags, but wasn't looking for any and can't say for sure that there weren't any.

Obviously the bullet did not "pencil" through so it either fragmented or tumbled.

The flesh exit and hide exit do not match in size and shape. If the bullet fragmented leaving that large of flesh exit, there should have been bullet frags under the hide which IMO, the OP should have noticed even if he wasn't looking for them. There should have also been small bits of bullet frags in the flesh of the exit hole.

The flesh exit shape is also a little odd in that it is not round which would be more consistent with fragmentation. It is more like a linear tear which is more consistent with an elongated shaped object in a sideways position.

I am not 100% certain but my tentative conclusion is that there was no expansion as there were no frags at all found. Even though the OP wasn't looking for frags, IMO he should have found some, especially under the hide at the exit.
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  #45  
Old 12-09-2013, 12:07 PM
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Re: 180 Berger VLD expansion mystery

With high impact speeds on a hard hit like this it can be very, very difficult to find bullet frag. I spent a couple hours mushing through an elk neck looking for bullet and frag with no exit hole, and all I found was two pieces about the size of a ball point pen ball. The best way to tell if the bullet tumbled or opened is the condition of the meat in the hole, tumble wounds will be cleaner through the muscles where as bullet frag removes muscle an leaves a rough ground appearance to the muscle at the edge of the permanent wound channel.

The exits on tumbling bullets tend to be long from what I've seen appearing as a tear in the hide. The exit wound he shows is definitely from an open bullet IMO.
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  #46  
Old 12-09-2013, 12:17 PM
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Re: 180 Berger VLD expansion mystery

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Originally Posted by bigngreen View Post
With high impact speeds on a hard hit like this it can be very, very difficult to find bullet frag. I spent a couple hours mushing through an elk neck looking for bullet and frag with no exit hole, and all I found was two pieces about the size of a ball point pen ball. The best way to tell if the bullet tumbled or opened is the condition of the meat in the hole, tumble wounds will be cleaner through the muscles where as bullet frag removes muscle an leaves a rough ground appearance to the muscle at the edge of the permanent wound channel.
Yes, I think this is because the expanding bullet unleashes its energy at a much higher rate than the tumbling bullet, causing more visible and permanent tissue destruction along its path - in comparison. Bullet/jacket fragments are the most certain single bit of evidence. But what you've described is also good corroborating evidence.
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  #47  
Old 12-09-2013, 12:34 PM
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Re: 180 Berger VLD expansion mystery

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigngreen View Post
With high impact speeds on a hard hit like this it can be very, very difficult to find bullet frag. I spent a couple hours mushing through an elk neck looking for bullet and frag with no exit hole, and all I found was two pieces about the size of a ball point pen ball. The best way to tell if the bullet tumbled or opened is the condition of the meat in the hole, tumble wounds will be cleaner through the muscles where as bullet frag removes muscle an leaves a rough ground appearance to the muscle at the edge of the permanent wound channel.

The exits on tumbling bullets tend to be long from what I've seen appearing as a tear in the hide. The exit wound he shows is definitely from an open bullet IMO.
Rhian, If you go back and look at the video in the other thread, you'll see that the flesh exit is exactly what you describe as a tumble wound. It is elongated and looks more like a tear. I haven't seen many exits from fragmenting bullets, but the few I have seen leave a big "round" hole in both the flesh and hide.

I can buy the idea that maybe bullet frags would be tough to find throughout the wound channel, but there should have been numerous frags under the hide to account for the size of wound and they should have been easily detectable. that is my biggest hang up with the expanding bullet theory here not to mention the shape and condition of the flesh exit.
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  #48  
Old 12-09-2013, 01:23 PM
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Re: 180 Berger VLD expansion mystery

Let's try not to get hung up on the size of the exit hole through the off side hide. Surely you all have noticed the stretch of living hide when you dress a game animal. The on-side hide is backed by the critter but off-side is unhindered from moving much like if you take a pinch of flesh and check how flabby you are. Stretched thin the bullet would punch a hole that would collapse to a smaller size after it passed through.

I don't think you can value the hide's exit hole for insight very much. But the flesh wound under that hole is a telling tale. I tend to look at the meat and not the leather.
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  #49  
Old 12-09-2013, 01:28 PM
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Re: 180 Berger VLD expansion mystery

I looked at that Mark but it's not what I'm talking about, I'll have to look back at my pictures but the exit in the hide on the bull I killed this year looked like a 1.5 in tear and did not have a ragged/puckered edge to and it's very easy to see the bullet came out side ways. To me the exit on this buck looked normal for a bullet that almost vaporized and only the base cup and some frag blew out the hole OR only the tip blew and the shank and some frag blew the hole out.
When we shot all those super hard 6.5 bullets this year we actually would catch them exiting backwards in jugs and every one tumbled but NONE tumbled till we passed 600 yards with them and the impact speed dropped. We would find perfect little mushrooms on the tops of the shanks so basically the nose would blow.
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