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180 Berger Performance

 
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  #8  
Old 12-06-2010, 01:09 PM
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Re: 180 Berger Performance

Derek,

I completely understand what you are saying and this specific position has been discussed at length each time we attempted to bring something to market that we knew was popular (plastic tips being the biggest). In the end we are left with a clear decision; compromise or don't.

We choose not to. For us, making bullets is not about making money. We are craftsmen that believe strongly in holding to a higher standard. My bills are paid and my family is fed. I do not measure my success by the size of my house or the value of my car.

Don't misunderstand my statements as being irritated by your question because I'm not. I can't tell you how many times we've been asked this question. In our opinion there is something wrong with us offering a bullet that we know can shoot no better than 1/2 MOA. The only reason for us doing so would be to increase sales at the expense of our reputation. This won't happen on my watch.

Let me be clear, I am not suggesting that the other brands that make bonded, plastic tipped or non-lead bullets are money grubbing weasels who have sold their souls for the bottom line. In fact I believe the opposite. The shooting sports needs less expensive options as not everyone can spend what the best costs. This is not a bad thing and is healthy.

We measure our success by the number of times a shooter tells his buddy that if he wants the best bullets he needs to get some Bergers. Even if both shooters use other brands also they know and trust that Bergers are the best when the best is needed.

Regards,
Eric
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  #9  
Old 12-06-2010, 01:53 PM
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Location: Canterbury, New Zealand
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Re: 180 Berger Performance

Sorry about the thread hijack, but

Eric, any idea what might have caused this entrance wound? It was from a 7mm mag, 168 berger mv 3060 fps range 475 yds. The pig was quartering slightly away. Entrance wound is about 2 inches across.



My thoughts were that the thick hide of the pig and angle caused the projectile to expand immediately.
This is the fourth or fifth animal I have shot with a berger and is the only one to show an entrance wound.

Stu.
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  #10  
Old 12-06-2010, 07:20 PM
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Location: OHIO
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Re: 180 Berger Performance

Eric, I don't read your words as though you are or were irritated. I, like others, was just curious.

That said, I respect Berger's position even though I disagree with it. I certainly wouldn't want a plastic tip on a Berger!

I would be very curious as to how a bonded Berger bullet would perform on a mule deer, however.

I'm not changing my 270 load though. Those 150s are insanely accurate and repeatable like no other load I've got in that rifle. Glad I have 12 more pounds of that IMR4350 lot # on hand and 25,000 of the same 215Ms from same lot#!
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  #11  
Old 12-07-2010, 10:33 AM
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Re: 180 Berger Performance

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi3006 View Post
Eric, any idea what might have caused this entrance wound?
Stu.
Stu,

I shot a pig in WV that had a similar entrance hole. It would be easier for me to explain if I had a sketch pad but I'll do my best. My pig was quartering with its nose down the hill. If anyone is familiar with WV you know that to call it "hilly" is the same as saying Minnesota has a few lakes. Even though I was only about 75 yards away I was on the downhill face of another hill.

As I cracked the shot the pig turned just slightly more downhill but the bullet found the side of the pig just behind the right shoulder. If you were looking at the face of a clock and my bullet was coming from 6 o'clock, the pigs nose was at 4:30 on impact. The steep angle of this entrance produced a nearly identical entrance hole.

As you might imagine the shot traveled a bit south of the boiler room but ended up causing so much damage to the lower part of the right lung through the diaphragm and into the intestines that the pig was not going anywhere. A quick second shot into the broadside was not needed to kill the animal as a later autopsy would clearly show but I was concerned that the first shot was not well placed in the vitals so a second shot was the right thing to do.

Given the amount of damage our bullets do when they fragment, had the entrance hole you show in your picture been from our bullet fragmenting on the surface you would see two things. The first is that the hole would be about 4 times larger than it is in the picture. The second thing is that the hole would be ragged as the fragments would go in random and unpredictable directions (like a grenade).

Your angle may not have been as steep as the angle of the shot on the pig I described above but flesh reacts in some unpredictable ways at times. Think about the boxer who takes several blows to the face but suddenly one blow has the effect of opening a gash that if you are a fighting fan (more MMA than boxing for me) you've seen them be quite long and deep. Why did the skin open up like that on that particular blow when several other blows did not have the same effect? It is difficult to say conclusively but it happens. In this case I'd say it is shot angle combined with the somewhat unpredictable behavior of tissue.

Regards,
Eric
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To strengthen your shooting skills go to the range.
To strengthen the shooting sports take a non-shooter with you.

Berger Bullets

Last edited by Eric Stecker; 12-07-2010 at 03:59 PM. Reason: Clarification
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  #12  
Old 12-07-2010, 03:12 PM
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Location: Canterbury, New Zealand
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Re: 180 Berger Performance

Cheers Eric, that confirms my thoughts. I figured it was shot angle and the firm nature of the pigs skin causing it to tear. The pig of course was DRT.

Stu.
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  #13  
Old 12-07-2010, 10:00 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Idaho Falls, Idaho
Posts: 125
Re: 180 Berger Performance

I will not shoot Bergers at anything but targets after this last hunting season. They are very accurate but do not kill, in my opinion. While deer hunting in southern Idaho, I lost a 4 point mulie on a Friday and on the next day I lost the biggest buck I have ever shot at. I was shooting a 270 with the 140 Bergers on both days. First buck ranged at 400 and I only found a few drops of blood. Second buck was ranged at 380. When I pulled the trigger he just collapsed. Got about half way to him and he stood up and went over the ridge. My cousin and I hunted for along time and only found two spots of blood about as big as a soup can. He was well over 30 inches.
Next was my cow elk. Shot was 200 yards with my 300 Win Mag driving the 190 grain bullets at just under 2900 fps. She was slightly quartering away so I sighted the center of her body. Heard the bullet pop and she just stood there. Another shot would just ruin more meat so I watched her for about a minute. She finally laid down so I walked out and had to shoot her in the neck when she stood back up. First shot turned her liver into tuna fish but did not exit. There was a slight bruise where the exit should have been. I have killed several elk with a 25-06 and a 100 grain Nosler Partition and very seldom not have an exit hole. They died quickly as well.
Just had a 22-6mm AI built with an 8 twist. I will try the Berger 80 grainers for targets but not for coyotes.
Kirk
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  #14  
Old 12-07-2010, 10:08 PM
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Location: OHIO
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Re: 180 Berger Performance

Kirk, that is unfortunate news. Sorry to hear about that! Dang. This is not my experience. I killed this buck and many other deer a couple of weeks ago with a 270 and 150 VLDs. Longest shot was 350 yards, shortest was 40 yards. They all died quick and right on the spot. Made me order 500 more .277 150 VLDs! Believe it or not, that last doe pic was the first deer on opening morning and I killed her at almost 300 yards and she weighed about 165 intact.




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Last edited by Derek M.; 12-07-2010 at 10:25 PM.
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