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7mm STW Brotherhood - For those who shoot the 7mm Shooting Times Westerner

 
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  #3466  
Old 04-27-2013, 02:44 PM
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Re: 7mm STW Brotherhood - For those who shoot the 7mm Shooting Times Westerner

I'll try to just adjust the die at first to see if that helps on it's on. I will report back next time I get to go to the range.

Thanks for all the responses.
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Originally Posted by WildRose View Post
The 284 is to the STW what a tricycle is to a Ninja.
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  #3467  
Old 04-28-2013, 06:18 AM
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Re: 7mm STW Brotherhood - For those who shoot the 7mm Shooting Times Westerner

I did a little catch up reading last nite, and a few different scenarios came to mind, and I thought I would share. Given the fact, that this and all belted mag cartridges HEADSPACE on the BELT, and not the shoulder. ( at least when it is new, and unfired). That being said, I have measured quite a few pieces of brass, as well as loaded factory ammo, that vary as much as .035-.040 from the positioning of the shoulder on the brass, and the distance ot has to travel to rest up against the chamber. It seems the best brass and ammo I have seen is the Winchester. So, as soon as it is fired, all the momentum and pressure move forward, and the weakest part of the brass right ahead of the belt now has a thin spot. So now when you resize, whether it be full length, or neck size, the shoulder is pushed back, and the ring above the belt starts getting stressed, and brittle. When you throw in the possibility of liberal chamber, and very soft brass, ( Federal ), you have a recipe for incipient case head separation. Even though neck sizing has been used, it is posible, ( probable), that the neck die is bottoming on the top edge of the shoulder, and STILL pushing the shoulder back, and again, stressing, spelled " kinking", the weak spot.
Dies need to be set up and adjusted on the very first firing of a single piece of brass, both neck and full length. Another thought, is to have a chamber mold taken, and check it against SAAMI specs.
Additionally, even if you do have a liberal chamber, a long seated bullet on the very first firing of new brass will keep the brass from stretching, then if the dies are set up properly at that point, brass life, and safety will greatly be enhanced.
The problem here is not unique to the STW, but to any belted mag. Once those dies are set, they are unique to that gun only. So for those that have multi guns, in the same caliber, it is better to get another set for the other guns, because all else is NOT equal. This has worked for me, as I have fooled with belted mags for many years, and have had my share of thinning case walls, but I've never had a rupture. That can destroy a chamber REAL quick. The escaping gasses can actually cut into the chamber, and create a bigger problem. This is just my ( 2 cents ), and IMHO, should be at least considered, but those pix are scary, and are screaming, something is VERY wrong here!
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  #3468  
Old 04-28-2013, 07:58 AM
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Re: 7mm STW Brotherhood - For those who shoot the 7mm Shooting Times Westerner

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7stw View Post
I did a little catch up reading last nite, and a few different scenarios came to mind, and I thought I would share. Given the fact, that this and all belted mag cartridges HEADSPACE on the BELT, and not the shoulder. ( at least when it is new, and unfired). That being said, I have measured quite a few pieces of brass, as well as loaded factory ammo, that vary as much as .035-.040 from the positioning of the shoulder on the brass, and the distance ot has to travel to rest up against the chamber. It seems the best brass and ammo I have seen is the Winchester. So, as soon as it is fired, all the momentum and pressure move forward, and the weakest part of the brass right ahead of the belt now has a thin spot. So now when you resize, whether it be full length, or neck size, the shoulder is pushed back, and the ring above the belt starts getting stressed, and brittle. When you throw in the possibility of liberal chamber, and very soft brass, ( Federal ), you have a recipe for incipient case head separation. Even though neck sizing has been used, it is posible, ( probable), that the neck die is bottoming on the top edge of the shoulder, and STILL pushing the shoulder back, and again, stressing, spelled " kinking", the weak spot.
Dies need to be set up and adjusted on the very first firing of a single piece of brass, both neck and full length. Another thought, is to have a chamber mold taken, and check it against SAAMI specs.
Additionally, even if you do have a liberal chamber, a long seated bullet on the very first firing of new brass will keep the brass from stretching, then if the dies are set up properly at that point, brass life, and safety will greatly be enhanced.
The problem here is not unique to the STW, but to any belted mag. Once those dies are set, they are unique to that gun only. So for those that have multi guns, in the same caliber, it is better to get another set for the other guns, because all else is NOT equal. This has worked for me, as I have fooled with belted mags for many years, and have had my share of thinning case walls, but I've never had a rupture. That can destroy a chamber REAL quick. The escaping gasses can actually cut into the chamber, and create a bigger problem. This is just my ( 2 cents ), and IMHO, should be at least considered, but those pix are scary, and are screaming, something is VERY wrong here!
X-2
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  #3469  
Old 04-28-2013, 08:09 AM
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Damascus, MD
Posts: 857
Re: 7mm STW Brotherhood - For those who shoot the 7mm Shooting Times Westerner

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7stw View Post
I did a little catch up reading last nite, and a few different scenarios came to mind, and I thought I would share. Given the fact, that this and all belted mag cartridges HEADSPACE on the BELT, and not the shoulder. ( at least when it is new, and unfired). That being said, I have measured quite a few pieces of brass, as well as loaded factory ammo, that vary as much as .035-.040 from the positioning of the shoulder on the brass, and the distance ot has to travel to rest up against the chamber. It seems the best brass and ammo I have seen is the Winchester. So, as soon as it is fired, all the momentum and pressure move forward, and the weakest part of the brass right ahead of the belt now has a thin spot. So now when you resize, whether it be full length, or neck size, the shoulder is pushed back, and the ring above the belt starts getting stressed, and brittle. When you throw in the possibility of liberal chamber, and very soft brass, ( Federal ), you have a recipe for incipient case head separation. Even though neck sizing has been used, it is posible, ( probable), that the neck die is bottoming on the top edge of the shoulder, and STILL pushing the shoulder back, and again, stressing, spelled " kinking", the weak spot.
Dies need to be set up and adjusted on the very first firing of a single piece of brass, both neck and full length. Another thought, is to have a chamber mold taken, and check it against SAAMI specs.
Additionally, even if you do have a liberal chamber, a long seated bullet on the very first firing of new brass will keep the brass from stretching, then if the dies are set up properly at that point, brass life, and safety will greatly be enhanced.
The problem here is not unique to the STW, but to any belted mag. Once those dies are set, they are unique to that gun only. So for those that have multi guns, in the same caliber, it is better to get another set for the other guns, because all else is NOT equal. This has worked for me, as I have fooled with belted mags for many years, and have had my share of thinning case walls, but I've never had a rupture. That can destroy a chamber REAL quick. The escaping gasses can actually cut into the chamber, and create a bigger problem. This is just my ( 2 cents ), and IMHO, should be at least considered, but those pix are scary, and are screaming, something is VERY wrong here!
Great Information!
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Remington 700 Sendero SF 7mm STW
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  #3470  
Old 04-28-2013, 09:40 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Leominster mass, originally Salisbury Maryland
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Re: 7mm STW Brotherhood - For those who shoot the 7mm Shooting Times Westerner

Quote:
Originally Posted by gamehawker View Post
Great Information!
That was the second time I wrote that! I wrote it last nite, and accidentally hit " undo" on my IPad, and deleted it. So I did it again this morning! . Good to hear from you!
Did you figure out the picture post thing yet? I never can!
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  #3471  
Old 04-28-2013, 11:42 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2003
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Posts: 49
Re: 7mm STW Brotherhood - For those who shoot the 7mm Shooting Times Westerner

I determinded years ago to forget the belt or rim is there and ajust your die for shoulder bump. I have competed in the benchrest group game for 20+ years and go through 1 to 4 barrels a year. Most gunsmiths are good but get the headspace off between .001 to .003. between barrels. Most guys have a set of shims you get from Sinclair International you use to ajust from barrel to barrel on the same action. We get very precise but I transfer the type of loading to my hunting rifles. The shims go under the die ring and make sizing for many barrels easy with the same die. In my game I have won and lost by .oo1 to .002 in the grand ag so it is a very precise sport. I don't want to confuse any one so just do what STW says. Thank you I love this form along with the one on BENCHREST CENTRAL.
Brush
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  #3472  
Old 04-28-2013, 12:18 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 66
Re: 7mm STW Brotherhood - For those who shoot the 7mm Shooting Times Westerner

I can speak from the standpoint of the gunsmith and barreling an action as I do about 4-7 barrels a week. When getting one barrel the same to last that was on it is dependent upon the reamer and the gauges (or brass in some cases) used. Each time a reamer is used it will change it's dimensions and we usually send our reamers back for a re-cut(sharpening and cut back to original dimensions about every 4 barrels. We can't do this with all reamers as some cartridges are true straight wall so the reamer has no taper to bump everything back and get back to original specs. Many of our reamers are custom built to our specifications or our customers and the headspace gauges are matched to that. We make a judgement/experience call based upon the customer, are they reloaders? are they using factory ammo? how experienced of a reloader are they? to help determine how tight or loose or what chamber to cut for them. Some feel that a tight chamber is an accurate chamber and thats not always true, sometimes it is, but more often than not we get better accuracy out of a looser chamber which allows the cartridge to float into position and settle in easier. Different actions also dictate how the headspace and chamber is setup as well, a Winchester push feed action typically can run a tighter chamber and settle more than the average Remington 700 for example, simply due to the design of the action and the more precision tooling and process Winchester uses over Remington. I'm not saying Winchester makes a better action than Remington so don't take it that way, I'm just saying that the machine work and measurements on a Winchester typically hold more true than the average Remington 700 action. We have many custom chamberings we like to do for different cartridges based upon experience and the customer, so talk it over with your gunsmith and figure out what does better for you with your setup. Part of our purpose as a gunsmith is to build the right weapon system for you, not what is the best Joe Bob built for himself somewhere else.
As a caveat to all of this, in our experience a custom headspaced chamber (meaning one off gauges and reamers) don't make a HUGE difference in accuracy, all things being equal it might mean 1/4 MOA improvement as an extreme example. Personally I would give myself some more wiggle room in my chamber at the expense of some accuracy (still shooting 1/2-3/4 MOA) which gives me room to experiment and try new loadings along the life of the weapon system.
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