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My New Defensive Edge LRKM

 
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  #134  
Old 08-08-2013, 01:21 PM
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Re: My New Defensive Edge LRKM

We have not had any that didn't expand in game from a std LM or Edge at 1000 or so with the 300 OTM's. MV's were in the 2800 range. I took a few yotes either side of 1200 with the same set up and got expansion. That is all the first hand info I have, so I will use it I guess. Impact velocities were around 1700. There ain't much in the rib cage of a yote to aid expansion I figure. I know at some point expansion will be an issue. But I know of no other bullet that will equal the 300 OTM in BC, accuracy and terminal performance. 1700 fps with the 338 Terminator +P comes in just under a mile. That should cove my hunting for a while. Unless we are talking wolves, then it's game on at any distance.

Jeff
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  #135  
Old 08-08-2013, 01:32 PM
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Re: My New Defensive Edge LRKM

Amen on the wolves!!!
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Kirby Allen(50)

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  #136  
Old 08-08-2013, 02:40 PM
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Re: My New Defensive Edge LRKM

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Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
That is certainly very good news and sounds like the Bergers are doing better then the SMK which from what I have seen fall on their faces dropping out of supersonic velocity.

If those Bergers are holding 1 moa after dropping out of supersonic velocity, then with the range you have with your rifle, it should make 3K shooting very interesting!!!!

Next question, bullet performance........

When Berger redesigned their 300 gr Hybrid bullet, Eric sent me a supply with the sole purpose to TRY to destroy them out of my 338 AM. I loaded them to some VERY hot pressures, in fact hot enough that cases were only good for two firings at these levels. I will not even state the velocities I was getting with them in a 32" barrel length because I DO NOT want anyone trying to duplicate that performance level in any way. This was simply a test to push the limits of this bullet as far as integrity and surviving extreme launch velocities.

In this test, rounds were fired one, every 10-15 seconds for a total of 20 shots fired down range. Again, this is something I would NEVER recommend doing but again, this barrel was donated to the cause of testing this bullet. I Each shot past the 7-8 shot was probably putting wear on the throat comparible to 50 rounds down the bore of normal use. Not good.

The reason for this torture test was simple. In the bast, Berger bullets had proven to be a bit sensitive to bore temps, especially the very long VLD style bullets driven at high velocity. The longer the bullet, the more sensitive the old style VLD were to excessive bore heat.

This test on the current 300 gr Hybrid was two fold.

A. Find the velocity limits of this bullet if possible.

B. See how this bullet would handle very hot barrels.

Concerning A, I tested at 1000 yards shooting at my 20" round gong. Certainly not a challenge to hit and I will be honest, I was not shooting BR quality as I was worried more about getting shots off in a timely manner. Still, all 20 shots EASILY landed on the gong for a total group of slightly under 12". Again, I will not state what the exact velocity was but it was far in excess of anything I would recommend for my 32" barreled 338 AMs and I generally recommend a 3300 fps accuracy load and 3350-3400 fps absolute max load in that platform. These bullets obviously handled the high velocity very well

Concerning B, slightly over 1 moa group is not great but remember that once I got to 7-8 firings, the barrel on my XHS was so hot I could not hold it. After 20 shots, I could smell the McMillan stock from the barrel heat. Took 45 minutes before I could even put my hand on the barrel and keep it there. Still, these new bullets shot close to 1 moa on that torture test. Dramatically better then the old design. I do not believe I have ever gotten a single shot, bolt action barrel that hot ever before!!!

This brings me back to the comment about seeing how they will perform terminally for you at extreme range. I have had many customers use these new bullets on big game in chamberings such as the 338 RUM, 338 Edge, 338 Lapua and 338 AX. Out to 1/2 mile or so, nothing but great results. From there out to 1000-1100 yards, results have been mixed with some claiming good terminal performance, others reporting pin holing through big game animals. This obviously greatly dependant on bullet impact location of course. Now these examples had muzzle velocited in the 2650 to 3050 fps range.

I have also had customers use these bullets out of my 338 AM on big game and have absolutely no problems with terminal performance at all out to even 1500 yards. These were launched at 3290 to 3380 fps so a significant boost in performance.

I suspect that at your performance level, which is right between these two levels, terminal performance may start to drop off at that 1400-1500 yard mark on soft impacts such as clean chest shots. On hard impacts, i.e. high shoulder, shoulder knuckle, you will likely see good expansion out as far as you are capable of shooting which I know is a FAIR POKE!!!

I believe that your combo certainly produces velocity levels that have to be classified in the "Super 338" category right there at the bottom rung of the 338-408 CT class level so you will likely see much better terminal performance out of the Berger. Course, you have to report all the details when you let her feed on some meat!!!!

Got to get to the shop and get some work done, take care!
Kirby.
I assume you are talking about the 300 OTMs ?
Have you done any testing with the 300 Elite Hunters ?
I have shot them in my 36" 338 DCM at 3400+ with no issues so far with accuracy etc, I haven't tested terminal performance yet.
Myself & other locals have had issues with terminal performance with the 300 OTMs at normal velocities 28-2900.
I have had several problems with the OTMs out of my 338 Terminator, Lapua improved at 3050 with a 1-10 SG barrel, the bore/throat is probably very easy on the jacket which could be the problem with lack of expansion ?
Cheers Greg.
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  #137  
Old 08-08-2013, 04:36 PM
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Re: My New Defensive Edge LRKM

OTMs are what I am throwing right now.

Seeing similar results as you are with the lower velocity levels but bumping things up over 3300 fps seems to dramatically improve expansion consistency.
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Kirby Allen(50)

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  #138  
Old 08-08-2013, 04:41 PM
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Re: My New Defensive Edge LRKM

[QUOTE

The case is off of a 338 Lapua, reduced taper and increased shoulder angle as well as the shoulder moved forward a bit. No loss of neck length though. Pumps it up to about 124 gr capacity. That and the new Defensive Edge +P design throat makes it a pretty sweet .338. It is what I choose over all of them anyway.

Jeff[/QUOTE]

You mention that the Terminator has 124 gr of capacity, is that total case capacity filled to the mouth or to the base of the neck? Is that water volume or measured with some other method? Just curious for comparision sake.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #139  
Old 08-08-2013, 05:10 PM
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Re: My New Defensive Edge LRKM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
You mention that the Terminator has 124 gr of capacity, is that total case capacity filled to the mouth or to the base of the neck? Is that water volume or measured with some other method? Just curious for comparision sake.
A fire formed, once fired case, with water flat at the top of the neck is 123.7 gr.

Same case filled to top of neck with N-570 is 121.2 gr

Probably would hold a few more grains of H-1000, but that is a guess due to the large kernels of N-570 compared to H-1000

I feel the cases will form a bit more too with a second firing. But again that is just a theory.

Jeff
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  #140  
Old 08-08-2013, 05:37 PM
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Re: My New Defensive Edge LRKM

Kirby, and or Greg, Two part question, Kirby pointed out how the BC and velocity of a super 338 can make ELR shots easier. I want to bring that back up and say I can tell you this is a real eye opener to me with the addition of 400 fps over my old 338.

So, I am and have been keeping an eye on the development of the 375's with new bullet offerings. It would be assumed that the larger bore would have a better barrel life too?? Or would the added 30 gr of powder to get the bullets to 3300 keep it close to the super 338's? I feel maybe a little more life from the 375?


Second part, bare with me,... Ok to rebarrel my 338 lets assume the going rate of $250 for thread and chamber and $400 for a tube..= $650. if a 338 terminator round loaded is $1.50 `$1.75 (less brass) what is the cost of a loaded 375 round with a good LR bullet (less brass)? I am trying to figure how much more it will cost to shoot a 375 and include barrel maintenance compared to a super 388 like the Terminator.

Thanks for any info.

Jeff

ps: but then we really have to also think about what it takes to replace all the loading equipment like presses and dies for the big gun.

How do you feel all this weighs out? I know, back to the "Speed Cost Money, How Fast do You Want to Go" thing right..
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