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Long Range 416?

 
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  #15  
Old 08-11-2013, 09:03 PM
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Re: Long Range 416?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
No, Barretts concept was to maintain rifle sales numbers in California and nothing more or less.

Hornady has listed this bullet but have yet to see any report of them being used by the average shooters. They say a nitch as there were NO long range bullets offered in 416. To bad they do not offer a long range option in 375 first, something like a 375 gr with a BC in the .850 range. Would be pretty easy to do and would really bring on the popularity of the 375s for long range shooting.

In my opinion, the 375 is just WAITING for good bullets to bring out its full potential. Will offer the ballistic performance of the 338s but with longer barrel life and will offer terminal performance similar to the 408 and 416 but with less recoil energy. That's just me through.....
I do not believe this is anything close to the truth. As Gunwerks puts it" the internet is a dangerous place"
The fact is Ron Barret is aging and is trying to pass some of the torch and marketing power to his son. His son designed the 416 to be of consideration for long range snipers to use without interference with the Geneva convention treaty. ( 50bmg is outlawed for use on people,technically)He was told to design a new caliber that would work on the existing Barret platforms and be a heavy hitter. As far as being overbore it truly is not. It was designed for the future possibility of longer, heavier, higher B.C bullets. This seems to be the movement of technology. It truly is a great design. If they wanted it to be more efficient they could of simply shortened it. DUH! The things that keep it from going mainstream was the cost of the cartridge and being released after the final date to be considered for military contracts. The 338 Lapua was selected over the 416 Barret only due to being submitted in time. It was done several years before the 416 Barret came out. The 338 Lapua floped for several years until the Military picked it up. The internet should remain for facts, not opinions.
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  #16  
Old 08-12-2013, 12:31 AM
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Re: Long Range 416?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiftydriver View Post
Many wildcats based on the Cheytac will come very close to matching the Barrett and do so MUCH more efficiently and with an easy to get case that is affordable to own a couple hundred of them.

What are the velocities being obtained by the 416-408cheytac wildcats?

The 416 barrett shoots 400gr's at 3150-3200 right?
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  #17  
Old 08-12-2013, 01:05 AM
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Re: Long Range 416?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ELR Researcher View Post
That is simply incorrect.

Here is what's available:

.416 caliber

AAAHarlow (banded solid), 400 gr

BarnesTipped TSX BT (copper solid, polymer tip) 350 gr, #41623TSX (copper solid); 300, 350, and 400 gr; #41683, 41686, and 41689

BarrettTurned brass solid, 395 gr VLD, #41613Bore TechV3 HP Solid (turned, hollow point), 442 gr, #BTBU-416-442HV3 Match Solid (turned), 442 gr, #BTBU-416-442M

Cutting EdgeMTH Match/Tactical/Hunting (copper solid, turned), 340, 350(2), 375, 420, and 444 gr, #MTH Vxx (double click and read individual descriptions for application)MTAC Match/Tactical (copper solid, turned), 446 gr, #MTAC V07 (double click and read individual descriptions for application)Dynamic ResearchPredator (turned solid); 420 gr

GS CustomHV (solid), 245 gr, #416245HV238HV (solid), 330 gr, #416330HV120SP (solid), 420 gr, #416420SP155 (for 416 Barrett)

LehighMatch, turned brass solid; 416 gr, #416-110

Lutz Moeller.416 Barrett MSG, solid; 424 gr, #N/A

Rocky Mountain.416 RBTAT, 450 gr, #N/A

Thunder Ammobrass solid, turned; 400 gr, #416B400SB100brass solid, turned, HP; 410 gr, #416B410grHP100brass solid, turned; 416 gr, #416B416MB100
I was referring to when Ronny Barrett released the 416 barrett. I could have worded it better perhaps but his reasoning for releasing the 416 to the public was mostly due to the 50 ban in California. He released to to maintain sales in California and as such it was a niche market. As it has grown SOME in polularity, custom bullet makers started to offer some other bullet choices but all are extremely spendy of not available.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com

Last edited by Fiftydriver; 08-12-2013 at 02:16 AM.
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  #18  
Old 08-12-2013, 01:20 AM
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Re: Long Range 416?

Quote:
Originally Posted by idaho elk hunter View Post
I do not believe this is anything close to the truth. As Gunwerks puts it" the internet is a dangerous place"
The fact is Ron Barret is aging and is trying to pass some of the torch and marketing power to his son. His son designed the 416 to be of consideration for long range snipers to use without interference with the Geneva convention treaty. ( 50bmg is outlawed for use on people,technically)He was told to design a new caliber that would work on the existing Barret platforms and be a heavy hitter. As far as being overbore it truly is not. It was designed for the future possibility of longer, heavier, higher B.C bullets. This seems to be the movement of technology. It truly is a great design. If they wanted it to be more efficient they could of simply shortened it. DUH! The things that keep it from going mainstream was the cost of the cartridge and being released after the final date to be considered for military contracts. The 338 Lapua was selected over the 416 Barret only due to being submitted in time. It was done several years before the 416 Barret came out. The 338 Lapua floped for several years until the Military picked it up. The internet should remain for facts, not opinions.
I was involved very heavily in the FCSA when California voted to ban the 50 BMGs in their state with a focus on the Barrett M82A1 as an example. Caused a serious stir in the 50 cal community. There were several instances where Ronny Barrett was interviewed by FCSA members and flat out said that the 416 Barrett was released to counter the Califonia Ban on his rifles.

Yes his son was the designer of the round but it was released by Ronny Barrett as he was the Head of the company at that time. I am not saying the round was not designed for other reasons but I am saying that it was released to the CIVILAN market within MONTHS after California banned the 50 BMG class weapon systems. When asked of this had anything to do with the Cal ban he stated many times it was certainly to counter this ban that was indirectly focused on his semi-auto 50 BMG rifles.

Barrett has always had military contracts and products not available to the civilian market and that stands true today. Most of which still are not available for civilian purchase. His decision to release the 416 Barrett to the public again has a large part to do with the California gun ban. This was simply because it would require nothing other then rebarreling his current rifles that were available to the public so no real overhead to get rifles heading to California again.

These are not opinion, these were comments directly from Barrett made to interviews with FCSA for their magazine VERY HIGH POWER. Not sure why it offends you so much.

As far as what the 408 CheyTac class weapons systems will do compared to the 416 Barrett, they do extremely well, especially when you use a wildcat based on that case. You can get within 100 fps of the Barrett and do so with 30 grains less powder and in rifle and ammo that weighs nearly 1/2 as much, that right there would be the reason why the 416 Barrett failed to secure a military contract.

As far as the 50 BMG not being legal to use in war against human targets...... Where did you get that. There are stories all over hell about US, Canadian and UK snipers using the 50 BMG for long range sniping using specialized single shot precision rifles. If this was not legal, I am pretty sure they would not be able to report on these long range kills on the enemy.
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #19  
Old 08-12-2013, 02:14 AM
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Re: Long Range 416?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TXAoudadKlr View Post
What are the velocities being obtained by the 416-408cheytac wildcats?

The 416 barrett shoots 400gr's at 3150-3200 right?
The 416 barret was originally listed with a 398 gr solid driven to 3250 fps. Since its release, its been downrated to 3150 fps and the three rifles I have shot in this chambering using Barretts own ammunition clocked an average of 3090 fps with a 400 gr solid. Now with some handloads using WC-860 and US869 we were able to get up to around 3150 fps which again is what they are listed at now. Problem is, that proper chamber pressure for the 50 BMG class head diameter is roughly 55,000 psi. This is because the HUGE head diameter generates EXTREME bolt thrust, even for the massive receivers designed for the BMG class weapon systems. TO check for proper chamber pressure, you should be able to fire a round, eject the fired case, put it back in the chamber and close the bolt on the just fired case with very little resistance on the bolt handle. IF there is noticeable resistance closing the bolt on a fired case, your 60,000 psi or heavier because you are permanently deforming the brass, again, this is the standard pressure checking method for any round based on the 50 BMG. If your loading hotter then this, your loading the case FAR over what it was designed to be loaded to.

Now to the 408 CT wildcats, let me explain my experience with this parent case. About 8 years ago I released my 300 Allen Magnum and 338 Allen Magnum and soon after that my 375 Allen Magnum. Then came the 410 AM and 50 Allen Tactical all based on this parent case.

The 300 AM proved to just be to large in case capacity for the 30 cal bore and did not work well at all, even with custom 300 gr class bullets(300 gr 30 cal ULD RBBT is something to see!!!). As such it was dropped from my option list for customers.

The 338 AM is a 408 CheyTac necked down to 338 with the shoulder location moved forward roughly 0.080" and shoulder angle sharpened dramatically over the parent case. Also body taper is increase as much as possible yet not to much to limit high pressure extraction performance. At the time I released the 338 AM, I was working VERY closely with Richard Graves who was the owner of Wildcat bullets at that time. He made me versions of his ULD RBBT in weights from 265 gr, 300 gr, 325 gr, 350 gr and 385 gr. In a 32" barrel length, the 338 AM could easily hit 3450 fps with the 300 gr SMK and 3250 fps with the 385 gr ULD RBBT using the old TTI brass. That was with at least a 6 firing case life.

About this same time CheyTac contracted with Jamison International for them to make their brass for them. I also contracted with Jamison to start making me correct headstamped brass that I could fireform so my customers could have correct headstamped, fully formed brass for my 338 and soon to be released 375 Allen Magnum wildcats.

The first brass I got in some of you may remember was referred to as the "double star" brass. This is the EXACT brass that Chey Tac was using for their factory loaded ammo. In my first tests with my new correct headstamped brass, I blew the primer pockets out on the first starting loads!!! I contacted Jamison about the problem but they said the brass was made to Chey Tac standards and they had no interest in stronger brass as their intent was for only one firing per case......

Well, about a month later Jamison must have been getting a lot of bad press because they hired a new team to come in and help them redesign the CT case so it would handle more pressure. THey sent me prototype cases to help pressure test using my 338 AM and 375 AM rifles just to see if my velocity results were similar to what they were seeing with good brass life. It took around 8 months but they finally came up with a case that could handle good working pressures. Not as strong as the old TTI brass but DRAMTICALLY better then the original design.

In the old brass, CheyTac loaded the 375 Cheytac with the 350 gr SMK to 3100 fps and the 408 Cheytac was loaded to around 2900 fps with the 419 gr projectile. With the new brass, these velocities were increased to 3200 and 3000 fps respectively. They also had a 305 gr option in the 408 CheyTac that was listed at 3200 fps.

Now, in my testing NONE of their ammo came with 100 fps of their advertised velocities but that's not uncommon with factory ammo. handloads with this new brass was easily able to be loaded to their listed claims.

My 375 AM was able to drive the 350 gr SMK to a max velocity of 3375-3400 fps with my accuracy load being in the 3280-3320 fps range.

I have only played with my 410 Allen Magnum in one rifle which is basically an improved version of the 408 CT made with my case shoulder design and body taper. With a 400 gr class bullet it will push 3200 fps very, VERY hard with a max charge of H-1000 or RL25. Retumbo gives a bit better velocity consistency but drops max velocity potential to around 3100 fps.

So, for a direct comparision, the 416 Barrett will drive a 400 gr class bullet to around 3150 fps and do so in a 50 BMG class weapon system in both size and weight.

You can build the 408 CheyTac into a repeating rifle that would weigh less then 18 lbs pretty easily and that would with with a 7 round detachable magazine box. Not only that but you can drive a same weight bullet to within 100-150 fps easily and do so with 50-60 grains less powder.

With the improved versions, you can get within 25-50 fps of the much larger 416 Barrett with same lighter rifle and much more compact ammo which again offers the dramatic improvement in barrel life over the Barrett and also opens up a HUGE array of powder choices. Anything from H-4831 to Retumbo will work very well.

So how is this possible, HOW can the dramatically smaller round match the performance of the MUCH larger 416 Barrett, simple, the case head of the Chey Tac is DRAMATICALLY smaller in diameter compared to the 50 BMG. As such, if you put 68,000 psi to the head of the 50 BMG, you would likely lock up even a 50 BMG class bolt. IF you put 68,000 psi to a cheytac case, the bolt will fall open and work perfectly well. Add to that the ability to use MUCH better powders which will generate much better velocity and also offer longer barrel life.

You would be dealing with 125-140 grains of powder in the 408 CT or its improved siblings depending on what powder was used compared to 190 to 200 grains of a very narrow selection of powder used for the barrett. That's 60 to 75 grains more powder for an extra 150 fps over the standard 408 Cheytac.........

Now, I am not saying the 408 is better then the 416 cal. Not at all, in fact, with the release of the 416 Barrett, there has been much more bullet activity then in the 408 cal bullet family. For that reason, the 416 is far better, but its a simple matter to neck up the 408 to 416 and get a few more bullet options as well.

Velocities compared between the 408 and 416 cal bullets of same weight over the same capacity are extremely similar. The 416 may be able to get an extra 25-35 fps with same bullet weights but that would be effected more by barrel to barrel variations.

Another example of how the Cheytac case can run very close to even the full length 50 BMG. THe standard 50 BMG loaded to a conventional max 55,000 psi will drive a 750 gr A-Max to 2650-2700 fps. In fact many 1000 yard BR shooters load their ammo to lower velocity then this but this is a pretty common velocity range for match quality accuracy.

My 50 Allen Tactical will drive a 750 gr A-Max to 2500 fps in a 30" barrel length. That is using RL19, RL22 or H4831. Now, that is with a powder charge of around 120-125 grains in the 408 CT based 50 cal round to get 2500 fps and that is in a 16 lb single shot rifle.

The 50 BMG will get 150 to 200 fps more velocity but in the mean time you will burn 215 to 235 grains of powder depending on what powder you use. And, again, add to that a 25 lb minimum rifle weight. Is an extra 100 grains of powder with 150 to 200 fps...... If you want a 50 BMG class weapon system, certainly.

Now, the 50 BMG CAN be loaded to higher pressures and push velocity higher but again, if you load the round to its design specs, it will not get that level of performance. Most velocity reported on the 50 BMG is with a 45" M2 browning barrel, not a 30" class match grade barrel.

So, what does all of this mean. The long winded report was simply to offer you my experience with both case designs and finding out the limits of each in 338, 375, 408 and 50 cal and comparing the Cheytac case to the Barrett and even full length BMG case. In every case, the Cheytac will get within 100-150 fps to the Barrett or 50 Spotter case and the improved wildcat versions will get within 50 fps of the listed factory specs for the Barrett.

This may surpise many of you but its simply the facts. The huge case head diameter of the 50 BMG is actually a draw back limiting the pressures it can be loaded to and the reason the 408 CT case can run very close on its heals, simply its ability to run at higher chamber pressures and to use much better powders that produce better velocity in shorter barrel lengths.

Nuff YACKING on my part. Hope this explains the comparision well enough.
__________________
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #20  
Old 08-12-2013, 03:21 AM
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Re: Long Range 416?

That is some great info.
Thanks for sharing
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  #21  
Old 08-15-2013, 10:28 PM
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Posts: 282
Re: Long Range 416?

FYI the 416 Barrett case is longer than the 50 Spotter buy approx 0.3"

So not simply a 50 spotter necked down
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