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See a wolf... what would you do?

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Unread 12-24-2011, 08:09 PM
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Re: See a wolf... what would you do?

This wolf is no more native to the Rocky Mountains than a Burmese Python is to the Everglades. The USFWS illegally introduced them, and the result is the extinction of the Timber wolf that existed here prior to this "experimental" transplant". The lawsuit filed to STOP this transplant actually had support from environmental groups. That's correct The Audobon society and Wyoming ranchers on the same side. Unable to procure money from congress for this "experiment" money was illegally pilfered from the Pitmann-Robinson Fund. The stated numerical goal was exceeded achieved long ago. Damages incurred were to be compensated for.
So after a couple of decades of being lied to, insulted, and robbed, folks are justifiably angry!
I want this animal gone, but would accept the numbers originally agreed on. The truth is to get to the stated management goals (their numbers) will take the same effort as eradication.
As far as our image--the groups on the other side consider hunters a step below child molesters, and having regard for their "feelings" only leaves us at an extreme disadvantage. Look into the death threats they spout at people disagreeing with them.
The original question would I shoot? Probably not, but circumstances on the ground will shape the final decision.
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Unread 12-24-2011, 09:04 PM
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Re: See a wolf... what would you do?

Love - Hate.
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Unread 12-25-2011, 12:11 AM
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Re: See a wolf... what would you do?

One problem I see is the demise of a sustainable food source if the **** hits the fan.

Back in the 1920's we suffered a period of depression that had people in rural and metropolitan areas suffering and starving. Wild game numbers during that time were low thru much of the Midwest and Western states, years of over harvest by commercial hunters had devastated the game populations.

Think of how many people could have been feed during that time period had the wild game numbers been similar to what we had in 1800 or 1990.

When Lois and Clark mapped the west the wolf was there, the NATIVE wolf, and in there journals they talk about the magnitude of game animals that inhabited the plains. So there is/was a balance to be had.

Put 5 million hunters in the mix and 300 million people, yes we will compete for food. Unfortunately this isn't 1800 and we don't have the wild spaces for the 20 fold numbers of game that once existed. The ideology of the environmentalist is save the animals screw the humans.

Those same environmentalist want to live in a big house made of wood bought with there 5-6 figure income. Yet save the trees the spotted owl lives in, that there house was built with. If you live the life of a true environmentalist you sure as hell better live in a mud and straw house, with no electricity before you effect the lives of real land stewards with your extremist vision of animal equality.

Attrition of certain species is an inevitable fact of life in the world we live in, some day it will be the humans who will suffer at the hands of some microscopic bug or germ. But we humans think we can control every aspect of the world we live in. The liberal tree huggers want to dictate there views on everyone and they squeal the loudest and are heavily funded. The good old boys in a pick-up truck want to continue on unmolested with the life they know.

Unregulated wolves get in the way of that life, the pot has been boiling and with out action, the steam has to be released.


When the hybreed/wolf/dog/whatever is 30 yards from your back door and your kids are out waiting for the bus. WOULD YOU PULL THE TRIGGER??

If you wouldn't how often are you letting your kids play in the woods or field behind your house?

How much of my life or yours need to change so the hipee's in the city can feel good about a wolf running around 200 miles away, in my fricking back yard?

Is there room for wolves in Wisconsin, Yes the 150 the 1984 plan called for. Not the 1500 plus we have now.
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Unread 12-25-2011, 12:47 AM
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Re: See a wolf... what would you do?

I like what the big green guy says, and the reply about the dance! my lips are sealed but my barrel stays hot!
Happiness is a warm gut pile
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Unread 12-25-2011, 01:48 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2010
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Re: See a wolf... what would you do?

Thanks for all the reply’s to my thread. I always learn a lot on this site. I usually hear a little hot air too! Ha Ha Ha!

Obviously a lot of people have very strong opinions on this subject. I dug up some info based on actual research that should help shed a little light.

Wolves and Elk Populations in Yellowstone:

"During 2000–2004, the Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks reduced antlerless permits for big game by 51% from 2,882 to 1,400. Initially, the effects of wolf predation on elk during the first five years of the recovery were not detected, as elk numbers were identical to those of 1980–1994. From the winter of 1995 to the winter of 2004 however, the elk greatly decreased in number, dropping from 16,791 to 8,335 as the number of wolves on the northern range increased from 21 to 106, though predation from bears, increased human harvests, winter and droughts were also factors. Since 2000, 45% of known deaths and 75% of predation-caused deaths of radio collared cow-elk have been confirmed to be attributable to wolves. Human caused deaths in the same period accounted for 8–30% of known deaths. Yellowstone elk comprise up to 92% of the winter diet of wolves, the overall kill rates of Yellowstone wolves on elk in winter being estimated at 22 ungulates per wolf annually. This is higher than the 12 ungulates per wolf rate predicted."

Debate on Subspecies:

"Historically, the wolf populations originally native to Yellowstone were classed under the subspecies C. l. irremotus. When the issue of what subspecies to use for the introduction was raised, park service representatives stated that the taxonomy of grey wolves had been revised numerous times, and that C. l. irremotus was not a distinct subspecies, but a geographical variant. Three publications were made on the appropriateness of using a founding population of Canadian wolves: Brewster and Fritz supported the motion, while Nowak determined that the original Yellowstone wolves were more similar to C. l. nubilus, a subspecies already present in Minnesota, and that the Canadian animals proposed by Brewster and Fritz were of the subspecies C. l. occidentalis, a significantly larger animal. The rationale behind Brewster and Fritz's favour was that wolves show little genetic diversity, and that the original population was extinct anyway. This was contradicted by Nowak, who contested that Minnesotan wolves were much more similar in size and shape to the original population than the proposed Canadian wolves, though he conceded that C. l. occidentalis was probably already migrating southward even before human intervention. The final use of Canadian wolves for the reintroduction was not without criticism: the American Society of Mammalogists criticized the project's lack of deference to the principle of Bergmann's rule, pointing out that the wolves used for the introduction were larger than the original park wolves, and were adapted to colder climates."

These wolves are all the same species, there is a lot of controversy and debate about which how many wolf sub-species there are and where they lived. In reality they had large ranges which often overlapped. All sub-species are able to interbreed but each has/had slight morphologic differences and were better adapted to their individual habitats. Estimates on the number of different wolf sub-species ranges from only four to more than twenty. It would be fascinating if somehow DNA from the original Yellowstone wolves could be obtained and compared to wolves that were reintroduced.

Idaho Wolf Harvest Data:

Total Harvest from 2009-2010 = 188 Wolves
Average female weight = 75-80 lbs
Average male weight = 95-100 lbs
Largest wolf taken = 130 lbs

My opinion. And that is all it is… my opinion. Wolves have a role the Rocky Mountain ecosystem. If managed well and numbers are kept at low sustainable levels they can help control populations of animals inside Yellowstone and prevent overpopulation and disease in that eco-system. I like the Wyoming Wolf Management plan which would allow a hunting season on wolves in the “Greater Yellowstone Eco-system”. Beyond this area the wolf would be designated as a predator and taken at will. I believe the current population is to high and well beyond original goals. This is leading to devastation of ungulate herds in some areas (see Idaho elk harvest graph)
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See a wolf... what would you do?-lolo-elk-numbers.png  
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Unread 12-25-2011, 02:19 AM
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Re: See a wolf... what would you do?

Originally Posted by jamesmc2 View Post

These wolves are all the same species, there is a lot of controversy and debate about which how many wolf sub-species there are and where they lived. In reality they had large ranges which often overlapped. All sub-species are able to interbreed but each has/had slight morphologic differences and were better adapted to their individual habitats. Estimates on the number of different wolf sub-species ranges from only four to more than twenty. It would be fascinating if somehow DNA from the original Yellowstone wolves could be obtained and compared to wolves that were reintroduced.

Same species or not the wolves that were already here were very differnent, and the most salient point, they ACTED very different than that ones you and I as hunters paid (robbed) for to be introduced here.

Carefully read through the points that detail the difference in habits/actions between these two very different types of wolves in this email link below again from one of the people most involved in documenting the existence of the wolves that were here before the non-native, invasive Canadian Grey wolf was introduced:

Native Rocky Mountain Wolves v. Introduced Canadian Gray Wolves - Black Bear Blog

The information is this email is and should be a major sticking point in this issue in my (albeit fallible) mind.

The Feds helicopter net gunned a very different wolf from not too far over the Canadian border, brought it back south across the 49 parallel and suddenly it's 'endangered'.

Think about that. The whole thing is a complete farce.

Dr. Val Geist is quoted as saying that 50% of a given wolf population would have to be killed every year for years to have an appreciable effect on increasing elk populations in the same areas. See below link:

Removal of West Fork Wolves Unlikely to Help declining Elk Populations

From above article: "Renowned wolf biologist, Dr. L. David Mech told me in a recent interview that removing wolves from the West Fork region would probably have little to no effect on restoring elk numbers. Wolves have a high birth rate and new wolves are likely to quickly claim territory opened by killing the current wolves. Dr. Mech believes we would have to remove far more wolves than the Federal Government will consider allowing to have any chance at helping the elk population."

This is a serious issue, made much more serious because of the kind of animal introduced. You have to really wonder about the mindset of the folks in the USFWS that were willing to rob 60 million+ dollars from the Pittman-Robertson fund in 1994ish--my money and your money from excise taxes on firearms ammunition etc. set up in 1936, I believe, largely to be given back the the states to manage their wildlife. Watching this interview with Jim Beers, who came out of that organization and saw for years what was going on, sheds some light on this:

I'd encourage all to watch this and contemplate a bit.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?" Thomas Jefferson - Notes on the State of Virginia

www.wildsidesystems.com - Shelter for Your WildSide - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYwgo...&feature=g-upl
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Unread 12-25-2011, 12:09 PM
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Re: See a wolf... what would you do?

Canis lupus occidentalis was different from Canis lupus irremotus, and arguments to the contrary should be likened to Bill Clinton trying to redefine what is means.
We are not dealing with folks of good will with differing opinions, the reclassification is just one more example of ongoing dishonest manipulation. We can't do much about the wolf, but we can make the decision to stop swallowing the BS.
The same folks that would have you believe "geographical variant" on one hand, want to spend millions of our dollars protecting something else when it suits them. These 2 wolf species are as different as the Barren Ground Caribou, and the Woodland Caribou, but millions of our dollars have been spent because of the "geographic variants".
We are not dealing with people of integrity, I'll give you another non-wolf example, Here in Washington 7 government employees submitted fraudulent hair samples to prove there were Lynx present here. 3 US Forestry Service, 2 US Fish and Wildlife Service, and 2 employees of the Washington Fish and Wildlife Department committed fraud so a "geographical variant" could be used to block access to Public Lands.
If being angry at being lied to, makes me a "hater" or whatever buzz word their using this morning so be it.
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