Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment > AR15/10 Rifles


Reply

Rifles to avoid?

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #15  
Old 02-13-2014, 08:27 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Omaha, Nebraska area
Posts: 12
Re: Rifles to avoid?

DPMS, Bushmaster, Remington, all owned by the same corporation.
At one time I liked all these brands.
Now......not so much. The corporation had mixed and matched parts and barrels.
I feel quality has suffered a great deal.

I have an earlier Bushmaster, and I love it. Well made, reliable, and accurate.

I have a Rock River Arms that is giving me sub-MOA groups.
Actually, I have quite a few 300 yard groups under and inch, which is
full blown fantastic!!!! Factory built gun with 1 I 7 twist, target grade trigger,
very good scope, solid bench, early morning shooting with no wind, and a major
component......Black Hills 77 grain boat tail match grade ammo!!!!!!!!!

I have nothing against Olympic Arms. While they seem a bit rough around the edges sometimes, and the colors other finish often vary a bit, they generally shoot very well. They do not use chrome lined barrels. I have had a couple of these, and NEVER had functioning or accuracy issues.

I have built 3 AR's now, and have found parts kits vary a great deal in quality.
My least favorite lower parts kit is DPMS. I have had multiple pins that were not
the proper size, and had to be replaced. Didn't much care for the trigger either.
My Palmetto State Amory lower parts kits have been great!!

Good Shootin!!
DarryH
__________________
Thanks !

Good Shootin!!
DarryH
Nebraska
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-18-2014, 07:56 AM
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 70
Re: Rifles to avoid?

I have had 7 DPMS rifles and while some were better than others, all of them shot atleast 1.5" MOA @ 100yds. Fit and finish is not as good as some but that can be cured in house. Expecially for the younger generation because youtube has an instructional video for everything AR. And while alot are Yayhoo's there are alot of quality videos. If your budget minded there is nothing wrong with DPMS. Cant think of any reason you would need a 1600$-2000$ baseline AR unless you where heading into combat. I have a 10 yr old DPMS AR15 with a profile barrel that has over 8,000 rds through it. It still shoots bottle caps at 100yds with a 3-9x40 scope. I do love this forum though. Everyone is civil and very respectful instead of saying POS and Turd.

Budget aint a bad thing...You need an AR. Its the new 22lr like when I was a kid.
__________________
Jim Clarke
27 YR Mil Vet Ret.
God, Country and Family.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-18-2014, 10:09 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Omaha, Nebraska area
Posts: 12
Re: Rifles to avoid?

Thought I should ad a note about direct gas impingement (DGI) vrs.
piston driven AR's.

You pay a premium for these piston driven models. Are they worth it???

I say that is up the individual.
They tend to stay cleaner, so if you do not have the opportunity to do regular routine maintenance, they have an advantage.
If you are running full auto, they stay cleaner, so you have an advantage.


Piston driven AR's weigh a little more than DGI..but as far as I am concerned, the difference in weight makes for no advantage or disadvantage.

Piston driven AR's are more expensive than DGI AR's.
There is not a lot of parts interchangeability in piston driven AR's.
Some say piston driven AR's are harder on the bolt and other parts of an AR.
I am NOT an expert, nor do I do a lot of work on AR's, so I cannot speak as an authority on this issue. My friends who run pistons have had NO breakdowns.

Personally, I feel there are a lot of good basic AR's for sale starting around $750.
I cannot see paying over $1300 for any AR, but that is just me.

Good Shootin!!
DarryH
__________________
Thanks !

Good Shootin!!
DarryH
Nebraska
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-19-2014, 08:48 AM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinios
Posts: 545
Re: Rifles to avoid?

My son bought a DPMS Sportical last fall. He wanted an AR, but didn't want to spend a lot of money. He put a Leup. Mark AR on it 1" groups @100 yds. out of the box with Fed. ammo. It's now 3 coyotes later. He's a happy camper.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-19-2014, 02:14 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 22
Re: Rifles to avoid?

I am in the market myself, having gotten some "found money" (bonus).

I was really interested in the Sig 516.
I have hefted a few in gun shops, did not notice the nose heavy feel others talk about.

Only one I've actually shot is a Daniel Defense DGI M4 carbine, rental gun, at a very short indoor range.

The DD M4 ran fine. I prefer actual scopes or even iron sights to the sort of optic it had. But it ran through all the ammo I cared to feed it, no problem.

I am amazed at how easy it is to get a hot debate started over the different brands.

I see posts saying Sig 516 would be greatest thing since sliced bread if it had a better trigger.

Other posts (and a fair number) saying Gen 1 Sig 516 had FTF probs, and that non-Swiss made Sigs are crap.

It was an American Rifleman review a few years back that got me interested in the Sig.

Now I've learned there are some "premier or top-tier" direct gas and piston designs, and some people think the best are Noveske (DGI), LWRC (piston), Lewis Machine T., (both), Colt ( mostly DGI and 1 piston), and maybe POF (piston) or DD (DGI) in the mix somewhere. I guess Les Baer maybe in the mix too.

I have had a salesman, clearly at least knowledgeable, with both Sigs and Colts, express his strong preference for Colt. He claims if you run the Colt on the wet side of lubed, at the critical points, it will run just fine.

I will admit the high opinion of current Colt ARs surprises me because, (1) they were a major supplier of the original M-16, and anyone who claims some soldiers did not have issues with them jamming is simply wrong. Maybe it was a misguided effort to use the wrong propellant, or failure to provide dry slide or some lube, or failure to instruct you needed to clean them often, but they had congressional hearings on this. So to say the piston is a solution in search of a problem seems just wrong. Maybe they ironed it out a lot in the M4 version. But my understanding is the M4 still experienced a fair number of combat jamsin the desert wars, and that was a reason for looking at the HK 416.

Now, the design, M16A1 and later M4 had a lot of virtues too. It was lighter, handier for getting out of helicopters, kicked less than M14, you could carry much more ammo. All the reasons (save for getting out of helos)why I'd like to get one, despite already having an M1A keeper rifle.

But back to Colt. I had a good friend in college, knowledgeable about guns, very big on Colts. He had a CAR-15, Gold Cup 1911, and a Python. The Python and Gold cup were beautifully blued. Both were pretty accurate, though not moreso than my Smith 686 with action job. But my recollection is the CAR and the Gold cup had occasional FTF issues. So to now hear the Colt 6920 and 6940 are considered top tier, bet your life guns surprises me a little.

The other thing I am a little surprised at is the fairly modest accuracy claims for the very expensive (to me) top tier stuff. I don't think Noveske, LWRC, LMT or POF has an accuracy claim. Given the fact that those are well above 4 figures, and some approach what you would pay for a beater vehicle, I wonder what you get for the money.

And on some of the AR forums, I see defenders of the platform saying the DOD spec is about 4 MOA. Well, I think that is correct, but if so, that doesn't seem like much of a standard. I'm no crack shot, and have many bad habits I'm trying to shed shooting wise. But if I couldn't get 2 MOA, shooting my M1A about as fast as I can line it up, that's an awfully bad day. And it will do closer to 1 with Fed GMM 168 BT. Closer still if you let the bbl stay cool, really check your cheek weld, etc. (It does have a NM bbl., nice NM trigger, sights, and NM flash suppressor for whatever the heck the latter does. It is not glass bedded.)

So I admit being puzzled. I thought the AR was inherently more accurate than M1A . I know it dominates the centerfire shooting competitions now.

Is it a matter of with Noveske, LWRC, POF, DD, and maybe current Colts, you are paying for SHTF/ end of world type reliability, and not the last degree of accuracy?

Stated another way, are the AR platforms used to get last degree of accuracy in competition built to such tight tolerances, or hot rodded such that they are unreliable for other purposes?

Sorry to hijack thread with long post. But if anyone has some answers on (1) reliability of current Colts 6920/6940, (2) any thoughts on current Sig 516, based on actual ownership or use, (2) and what one really gets for the $$ with some of the top tier guns, I'd appreciate it.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-19-2014, 03:40 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Omaha, Nebraska area
Posts: 12
Re: Rifles to avoid?

Not meaning to sound stuffy or rude, but I think you read too much.
Take all that you read, and believe about 25% of it. That might get you close to the truth.

Every gun platform has had issues from time to time. Somebody is always going to get a lemon. One person writes about their bad luck, and 50 more read it and take it as gospel, and start preaching it themselves.

Yes, early Colt M16's had issues. No chrome lined bores in tropical areas,
not issued with cleaning kit or cleaning instructions, and a government trying to save money and using the wrong powder. All that happened......in the 1960's!!!!!
Current issued M16 variants are some of the best guns used by any military in the world. That was aid by none less than Uziel Gal, inventor of the Uzi submachine gun. There will always be issues....wear, climate, maintenance, etc.
It is still in use by our military for a reason, as well as being the choice of many other agencies and governments world wide.

Are current Colt made AR's the best???? Best at what????
There are many good to great variations out there. To proclaim one to best the best is arrogant at least. Compared to SOME other brands of AR's, Colt's DO seem to hold the value better.

4 MOA accuracy....I've seen badly worn or maintained, or poorly shot AR's do that.
The majority seem closer to 2 MOA. The guns used in combat were not intended
to hit a prairie dog's eye at 300 yards, but I have a Rock River that does that pretty well. I would not take that Rock River to war though. Very tight tolerances
and I amusing ammo that is premium priced, especially compared to Mil-Spec ammo.

More accurate than the M1A????? At closer ranges I would say yes.....most of the time. Those heavy 308 bullets do better past 400 yards, especially in the wind.
The AR is an easy platform to get accuracy from, just because of the way it is built.
A good barrel mated properly to the receiver, a good trigger, and good ammo, and most can shoot very well. A free-float forearm and a proper muzzle brake are icing on the cake. It is much easier to tune up the AR than the M1A.

The SIG does not handle well for me. The few I have shot had no issues.
Not all guns are good matches for every shooter.

If you like the SIG better.....buy it. Don't worry about what others say or think.
Find out for yourself.

I probably have forgotten a lot of things, and I am too lazy to proofread my poor typing, so sorry if my message is not perfect.

Like I said.....I am not trying to be critical, only informative.

Good Shootin!!
DarryH
Nebraska







Quote:
Originally Posted by left handed gun View Post
I am in the market myself, having gotten some "found money" (bonus).

I was really interested in the Sig 516.
I have hefted a few in gun shops, did not notice the nose heavy feel others talk about.

Only one I've actually shot is a Daniel Defense DGI M4 carbine, rental gun, at a very short indoor range.

The DD M4 ran fine. I prefer actual scopes or even iron sights to the sort of optic it had. But it ran through all the ammo I cared to feed it, no problem.

I am amazed at how easy it is to get a hot debate started over the different brands.

I see posts saying Sig 516 would be greatest thing since sliced bread if it had a better trigger.

Other posts (and a fair number) saying Gen 1 Sig 516 had FTF probs, and that non-Swiss made Sigs are crap.

It was an American Rifleman review a few years back that got me interested in the Sig.

Now I've learned there are some "premier or top-tier" direct gas and piston designs, and some people think the best are Noveske (DGI), LWRC (piston), Lewis Machine T., (both), Colt ( mostly DGI and 1 piston), and maybe POF (piston) or DD (DGI) in the mix somewhere. I guess Les Baer maybe in the mix too.

I have had a salesman, clearly at least knowledgeable, with both Sigs and Colts, express his strong preference for Colt. He claims if you run the Colt on the wet side of lubed, at the critical points, it will run just fine.

I will admit the high opinion of current Colt ARs surprises me because, (1) they were a major supplier of the original M-16, and anyone who claims some soldiers did not have issues with them jamming is simply wrong. Maybe it was a misguided effort to use the wrong propellant, or failure to provide dry slide or some lube, or failure to instruct you needed to clean them often, but they had congressional hearings on this. So to say the piston is a solution in search of a problem seems just wrong. Maybe they ironed it out a lot in the M4 version. But my understanding is the M4 still experienced a fair number of combat jamsin the desert wars, and that was a reason for looking at the HK 416.

Now, the design, M16A1 and later M4 had a lot of virtues too. It was lighter, handier for getting out of helicopters, kicked less than M14, you could carry much more ammo. All the reasons (save for getting out of helos)why I'd like to get one, despite already having an M1A keeper rifle.

But back to Colt. I had a good friend in college, knowledgeable about guns, very big on Colts. He had a CAR-15, Gold Cup 1911, and a Python. The Python and Gold cup were beautifully blued. Both were pretty accurate, though not moreso than my Smith 686 with action job. But my recollection is the CAR and the Gold cup had occasional FTF issues. So to now hear the Colt 6920 and 6940 are considered top tier, bet your life guns surprises me a little.

The other thing I am a little surprised at is the fairly modest accuracy claims for the very expensive (to me) top tier stuff. I don't think Noveske, LWRC, LMT or POF has an accuracy claim. Given the fact that those are well above 4 figures, and some approach what you would pay for a beater vehicle, I wonder what you get for the money.

And on some of the AR forums, I see defenders of the platform saying the DOD spec is about 4 MOA. Well, I think that is correct, but if so, that doesn't seem like much of a standard. I'm no crack shot, and have many bad habits I'm trying to shed shooting wise. But if I couldn't get 2 MOA, shooting my M1A about as fast as I can line it up, that's an awfully bad day. And it will do closer to 1 with Fed GMM 168 BT. Closer still if you let the bbl stay cool, really check your cheek weld, etc. (It does have a NM bbl., nice NM trigger, sights, and NM flash suppressor for whatever the heck the latter does. It is not glass bedded.)

So I admit being puzzled. I thought the AR was inherently more accurate than M1A . I know it dominates the centerfire shooting competitions now.

Is it a matter of with Noveske, LWRC, POF, DD, and maybe current Colts, you are paying for SHTF/ end of world type reliability, and not the last degree of accuracy?

Stated another way, are the AR platforms used to get last degree of accuracy in competition built to such tight tolerances, or hot rodded such that they are unreliable for other purposes?

Sorry to hijack thread with long post. But if anyone has some answers on (1) reliability of current Colts 6920/6940, (2) any thoughts on current Sig 516, based on actual ownership or use, (2) and what one really gets for the $$ with some of the top tier guns, I'd appreciate it.
__________________
Thanks !

Good Shootin!!
DarryH
Nebraska
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 02-19-2014, 03:58 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Central Mississippi
Posts: 221
Re: Rifles to avoid?

I agree 100% darryh
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC