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Reloading for Gas Guns?

 
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  #8  
Old 03-07-2011, 04:12 AM
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Re: Reloading for Gas Guns?

I'd like to know more about CCI#41 (44?) primers? Where can they be found in sufficient quantity?

How/do they compare to Fed Match primers?
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  #9  
Old 03-07-2011, 09:43 AM
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Re: Reloading for Gas Guns?

BigSkyGP,

CCI #41s are Mil spec small rifle primers. They're fairly hot, and would probably equate to what we'd normally consider a magnum primer. Their key difference is the fact that they're made with very heavy cups to prevent slam fires in guns with floating firing pins; like the M16 family. If you've never tried it before, fire a round or two (so the chambering is what it normally is during firing) and extract the next chambered round. You'll see a very pronounced dimple on the primer where the firing pin struck it during chambering. Yes, the firing pin actually hits the primer lightly when the bolt closes on a live round. As you can imagine, there's a fine balancing act between cups thick enough to withstand thsi sort of provocation without detonating. That's what Mil Spec primers are set up to do. This is also where the warings about not using Federal 210Ms in Garands and M14s (both of which also have floating firing pins) comes from. I've used a lot of the #41s and the #34s (large rifle Mil Spec) and never had a problem. I've also used many other commercial primers, but am careful to stick to those with harder cups; Remington 7 1/2s, Wolf SRM or 223 primers, etc..

I've seen slam fires in M14s, and it's pretty nasty. Never seen one in a M16 typr rifle, but the potential is there. Worth keeping an eye on, and avoiding if at all possible. Two eyes, ten fingers, that's all you get.
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  #10  
Old 03-07-2011, 11:04 AM
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Re: Reloading for Gas Guns?

Kevin,

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but in the M1A/M14 family it was not unheard of to fire out-of-battery (before the bolt is completely locked up) because of things like this (overly sensitive or high primers)? I've always heard that because of the design of the M16/AR15 bolt this particular phenomenon is, if not physically impossible, considerably more difficult to make happen. I'm not an engineer or gunsmith, I just shoot the dang things, so I take some of that stuff at face value.

Seems like there's always a few who think with the right combination of powder/primer/bullet/etc. they can make their AR .223 into a .22-250, rather than accepting the gun/cartridge for what it is...

Monte
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  #11  
Old 03-07-2011, 05:17 PM
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Re: Reloading for Gas Guns?

Kevin

That is a good piece of information on the primers. I was already to get another 1000 CCI primers, but will now look for the CCI #41.

I have a Lo Pro Classic with a 16" 1/9 twist barrel and I am using Ramshot XTerminator with 55 gr. bullets. I am getting getting just under 3100FPS and the groups are very tight.

Jim
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  #12  
Old 03-07-2011, 11:49 PM
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Re: Reloading for Gas Guns?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas View Post
BigSkyGP,

CCI #41s are Mil spec small rifle primers. They're fairly hot, and would probably equate to what we'd normally consider a magnum primer. Their key difference is the fact that they're made with very heavy cups to prevent slam fires in guns with floating firing pins; like the M16 family. If you've never tried it before, fire a round or two (so the chambering is what it normally is during firing) and extract the next chambered round. You'll see a very pronounced dimple on the primer where the firing pin struck it during chambering. Yes, the firing pin actually hits the primer lightly when the bolt closes on a live round. As you can imagine, there's a fine balancing act between cups thick enough to withstand thsi sort of provocation without detonating. That's what Mil Spec primers are set up to do. This is also where the warings about not using Federal 210Ms in Garands and M14s (both of which also have floating firing pins) comes from. I've used a lot of the #41s and the #34s (large rifle Mil Spec) and never had a problem. I've also used many other commercial primers, but am careful to stick to those with harder cups; Remington 7 1/2s, Wolf SRM or 223 primers, etc..

I've seen slam fires in M14s, and it's pretty nasty. Never seen one in a M16 typr rifle, but the potential is there. Worth keeping an eye on, and avoiding if at all possible. Two eyes, ten fingers, that's all you get.

Thanks, I had that all in the bag! I've been working on M16A2-A4s, M4s, and ARs since '98. I've seen the dimpled primers. I figured U. Sam has different primers for that, didn't know we could get them for reloading components.

I'm more curious about where to look for them, and if it would be a waste of my time, due to availability/cost.

I'm also interested in getting away form the f-pin burn throughs. The remingtons, and CCIs both, my f-pins are fine, right now, I don't look forward to having to replace them because of crapy primers.
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  #13  
Old 03-15-2011, 03:39 PM
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Re: Reloading for Gas Guns?

Monte,

Sorry for the delay here, but I've been out of the office for the past week at a trade show. You're correct here, but it sounds that we may be mixing slam firers and out of battery firings a bit. For those who may not be familiary with these, a slam fire occurs when the bolt goes home and discharges the round. The bolt may be either in or out of battery when this occurs; they happen both ways. If the bolt is in battery, you merely have an accidental discharge that leaves the rifle otherwise undamaged (aside from scaring the crap outta you, and hopefully not killing someone nearby: muzzle discipline!). An Out of battery firing occurs when the rifle is fired (intentionally or otherwise) and the bolt is not locked fully into battery. Yes, the Garand and M14s both use a similar safety system to prevent this, but I've seen them happen. Mechanical stuff . . . never trust it completely. True the, ARs are much, much less likely to do this. In fact, I've never heard of it happening. I can, however see somepossibility for this happeneing if the bolt was damaged, as in losing lugs. Don't laugh, I have seen that happen. So I'll stick with the "less likely" description and won't say "never".

Out of battery firings are serious business, and they can be very dangerous and destructive. I had a guy blow up an M14 right beside me during a match one time, slightly injuring him, but destroying the rifle. I had one personally in a bolt action once, in which the rifle itself was only slightly damaged, but left me with a shattered right arm and a 16" scar running from the top of the shoulder to below my elbow. In that particular instance, the rifle was virtually undamaged, and required only a new bolt handle to be screwed on, assuming I'd have been stupid enough to use that action again.

Basic rules for avoiding either in Service Rifles are the same; use properly sized (full length ONLY) sized brass, that has a measured .003"-.005" headspace, a sturdy enough primer such as the #41s, #34s, Wolf Small Rifle Magnum or 223s, or other thick-cup designs. Assure that the primers are fully seated, at least a few thou below the case head, and manually check this when you reload, each and every time. It's the little things that'll bite if we start getting complacent.
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Last edited by Kevin Thomas; 03-15-2011 at 03:42 PM.
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  #14  
Old 04-09-2013, 11:14 PM
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Re: Reloading for Gas Guns?

I take it most popular Ballastic Tips are OK in the AR 15 platform. I'm interested in the fragmenting Varmint Grenades, Barnes MPG bullets and or Nosler Lead Free style of bullets. Has anybody reloaded these for the AR 15 .223 ? Some circumstances require low/no recocheit and otheres ( Fed lands & waterways) no lead.
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