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TAC 15/15i Basic Unpublished Information

 
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  #8  
Old 02-28-2011, 11:47 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10
Re: TAC 15/15i Basic Unpublished Information

rmbeach:

I'm looking at spine testers -- can make one if -- take a look:

Jim Hill's Spine Tester

Saves checking with PSE for bare shafts -- thanks. Did PSE have anything to say about spine testing & placement of the vanes?

Love, e
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  #9  
Old 03-01-2011, 12:10 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 53
Re: TAC 15/15i Basic Unpublished Information

Egypt,

It was late last summer when I tried to order bare shafts (when I was still pretty dumb regarding the Tac 15) so I didn't inquire about spine testing or refletching.

I have an old ABAH arrow straightener I used when competing in indoor and field archery. I might be able to use it to make a spine tester. I'm going to need a lot more information first......I looked at the home made tester you referenced. He mentioned spacing the holders 26 inches apart. The Tac arrows are only 26.25 inches long!

I'm going to need more research and I may PM Super91 for his experience with a spine tester to cut down the learning curve.
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  #10  
Old 03-01-2011, 12:13 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10
Re: TAC 15/15i Basic Unpublished Information

Here is an interesting spine tester to make as ones to purchase cost $250-$300...

YouTube - spine testing device

The above seemed the most straight-forward in home-construction? I wonder if two pounds or another weight should be used for the PSE arrows.
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  #11  
Old 03-01-2011, 12:20 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 391
Re: TAC 15/15i Basic Unpublished Information

Hi Egypt and RMbeach,
Super91 has been doing a great job of testing different vanes on the TAC Arrows in an attempt to achieve optimal flight performance on these arrow shafts. Nobody including him have done the basic work to figure out if the spines of the PSE Arrow Shafts are aligned properly before the arrows have the vanes put on at the factory.

A spin tester for graphite arrows is a very expensive piece of equipment and is used to mark the stiff side of the spin.

In the old days we used to be able to see the stiff side of the spin on aluminum arrows because the seam was visible the full length of the shaft, if you looked closely.

As long as all vanes or feathers are place in the same location on each shaft, so the stiff side is aligned exactly the same for each shaft, the flight characteristics should remain the same as long as you can control the weight of each shaft within less than 1/2 grain. This is achieved during the gluing process of the insert on the end of the arrow. A hot melt ferrule cement is used and more or less can be added to the insert to achieve less than 1/100th of a grain of difference between your heaviest and lightest arrow. All that's needs needed is a simple cheap electronic gram scale.

With carbon arrows there are no outward markings on the shaft to indicate where the stiff side of an arrow shaft is. There is a way to determine the stiff side of a carbon spin using a tub of water, but it's time consuming and no where near as accurate as a spin testing machine.

Most major arrow shaft producers understand the importance of Spine Testing and matching the spine of there expensive carbon arrows. PSE may or may not have this knowledge because they are relatively new in the game of producing carbon shafts. Even if they do understand it, this does not mean that the people assembling their arrows understand the need to place their Dynavanes in precisely the same locations on every shaft the produce.

Egypt,
Bare shafts have no grooves or markings for the placement of vanes. You only see what appears like grooves when you lose a vane and then you are looking at glue residue that forms what looks like a groove.

A Fletching Jig is a tool that holds your arrow shaft in a precise alignment and uses a clamp to hold a vane or a feather and places it against a bare arrow shaft after you've placed a thin line of glue along the underside of the vane or feather. Once the glue sets up the Fletching Jig rotates the arrow shaft a precise number of degrees to align the placement of the next vane. Different NOC Receivers and different Jigs permit different spacings of your vanes and can also allow the vanes to be aligned either straight in parallel with the shaft of with a certain amount of offset or rotation on the shaft. This all creates different flight performances of the arrow when shot.

What you refer to as old grooves are probably the surplus glue residue from vanes that have come off the arrow. This is usually removed by light scrapping with a dull knife or razor blade, being careful not to damage the carbon shaft. It can also be removed by applying a glue debonding liquid.

All shafts must be thoroughly cleaned using denatured alcohol to remove surface oils and other dirt before beginning the gluing of vanes. This makes a major difference on how solid your vanes adhere to the arrow shaft. I do this for aluminum or carbon shafts. You simply wet a rag with the denatured alcohol, wrap it around each shaft and squeeze as you run the rag down the length of each shaft. Place the finished shafts in a bucket or other holder for 20 minutes to air dry. This opens the pores of the arrow shaft and assures they are clean and ready to fletch.

If using an instant setting glue, I would recommend the use of a gel form as opposed to a liquid form. The gel is much easier to control and it does not run the way the liquids do. It's a much neater finished product.

Finally, there could be a great deal to be learned and gained from the testing that Super91 is doing with the new Aero II Vanes, but unless the basics in the equipment and tuning have been verified it may be complicating and masking the real problem. My testing and work is to insure that the fundamentals have been properly tested and not just overlooked or bypassed, otherwise his nice work will have appeared to provide no real improvements due to the problems that we are discussing.

Glad you guys are joining the forum and I hope you will continue to add your input and discussions. We all learn when we can share our knowledge and information.

Jon
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  #12  
Old 03-01-2011, 12:54 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 391
Re: TAC 15/15i Basic Unpublished Information

Be a bit careful when speaking with PSE. I've found them to be very helpful with certain information, but remember you are dealing with the customer service reps, not the engineers.

Although I believe their engineers are extremely knowledgeable, they are not very easy to get to. A customer service rep. is only going to release certain information. This could be opening a major can of worms, so I would like to be sure of what I am reporting before I tell them that their highest priced carbon arrow production is flawed.

This is why I stated that spine testing needs to be done and verified before going back to them with a question or claim. If we find all spines are identically matched to the Norway Dynavane placement on the shafts, then there may be another problem that is beyond my knowledge.

If we find that the spines are not properly matched, then we have a valid case that will benefit every TAC shooter no matter what they're shooting.

I have a very close friend that is in the archery business and has been for nearly 35 years. He used to mass produce all types of arrows and he has a spine tester. He's not close to where I live, but it may be necessary to take the drive and pay him a visit to perform the testing in question.

I likely won't be able to make it for another couple weeks.

I would think one of our members or readers must have easier access to a good graphite arrow spine tester.

Jon

Jon
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  #13  
Old 03-01-2011, 01:34 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10
Re: TAC 15/15i Basic Unpublished Information

Jon,

Well, I sure am learning -- and looking up terms, things, prices! Thank you so much for taking the time in explanations.

I thought possibly there really were grooves to slip the vanes into, but I see on websites for fletching that the feathers are glued as you described.

I won't be contacting PSE -- thanks for that info. Better left in your hands.

Love, e
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  #14  
Old 03-07-2011, 06:44 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SW virginia
Posts: 82
Re: TAC 15/15i Basic Unpublished Information

Lots of very important information right here.

I have been spine testing over the past few days. I have a RAM QC Carbon Arrow Tester. I have not checked to see if this was the case, but I do not think that Carbon Force is indexing the spine of the shaft with the fletchings. I think they print the label and fletch from there. This is a problem as I have not found over several dozen shafts that there are more than a few that meet the same spine characteristics.

PSE does indeed have shaft only now, and I will be placing an order for quite a few dozen just to be able to go through them and sort them so I can get several dozen within tolerances. This ought to make for some seriously accurate shafts. Next will be which fletching will be the most accurate over the factory 3-D duravanes. I have about 6 other choices I plan to try at this point so once I am able to sort and get ready to fletch, the testing will begin! I will video some of this so we all can see the results.

Jon has some super great info. We all need to think about how to approach the accuracy of the TAC-15 in whatever form you have, and with a little tweaking we will be able to do some things most crossbowmen only dream of.
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