Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Hunting > PSE TAC 15/15i Crossbow Hunting Forum


Reply

TAC 15/15i Basic Unpublished Information

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #113  
Old 04-07-2011, 08:43 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 391
Re: TAC 15/15i Basic Unpublished Information

Hi Dorge,
I'm sure I speak for all of our forum members when I extend a warm welcome to you. We're happy to have you join us and help provide as much information as you have.

We've been slowly collecting as much technical information about the PSE TAC15's and their arrows as we can. As you may be aware Super 91 and many others have provided us with a good deal of the information and testing verifications for that we've published in this forum.

Our goal is to collect and document as much detailed information as we can. This helps all owners share this information and hopefully improve the shooting capabilities and aid in the evaluation process for future product developments.

As a personnel response to the information you've supplied, I only have one point that I'm not sure I agree with. While I understand that the Bitzenburger Fletching Vise may not be dead on accurate in its ability to index (rotate arrow shafts) at precisely 60 degree spacing or 120 degree spacing, it does rotate the exact amount of spacing each time on the same jig. That spacing might be 55 degrees or 125 degrees when going from one side of the shaft to the other, but it is the exact same spacing each time a user rotates the nock indexing knob.

That would indicate that each arrow produced on these jigs would have exactly the same spacing between each vane placed on each shaft with this jig. In order to achieve the same performance from arrow to arrow, it's necessary to maintain the same exact alignment of the vanes, but it does not need to be exactly 60 degrees or exactly 120 degrees spacing. The 120 degree spacing is used to support maximum vane clearance from the cables and the 60 degrees is a spacing between each set of vanes on the two sides of the shaft, so I fail to understand why a deviation of 4 or 5 degrees would matter as long as every arrow produced had exactly the same 4 or 5 degree deviation?

Let's use a 5 degree deviation as an example. For conversation sake we could say that the separation on the Bitz. nock receiver was 125 degrees instead of a perfect 120 degrees. It would seem that as long as every arrow produced started the next vane on the opposite side in the 125 degree position, it would mean that every arrow produced would have this same pacing and therefore fly exactly the same as long as the spines were aligned the same and all other shaft matching characteristics were pre-matched or am I missing something?

Regards,


Jon
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 04-07-2011, 09:51 PM
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 55
Re: TAC 15/15i Basic Unpublished Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by jon.henry755 View Post
As a personnel response to the information you've supplied, I only have one point that I'm not sure I agree with. While I understand that the Bitzenburger Fletching Vise may not be dead on accurate in its ability to index (rotate arrow shafts) at precisely 60 degree spacing or 120 degree spacing, it does rotate the exact amount of spacing each time on the same jig. That spacing might be 55 degrees or 125 degrees when going from one side of the shaft to the other, but it is the exact same spacing each time a user rotates the nock indexing knob.

That would indicate that each arrow produced on these jigs would have exactly the same spacing between each vane placed on each shaft with this jig. In order to achieve the same performance from arrow to arrow, its necessary to maintain the same exact alignment of the vanes, but it does not need to be exactly 60 degrees or exactly 120 degrees spacing. The 120 degree spacing is used to support maximum vane clearance from the cables and the 60 degrees is a spacing between each set of vanes on the two sides of the shaft, so I fail to understand why a deviation of 4 or 5 degrees would matter as long as every arrow produced had exactly the same 4 or 5 degree deviation?
You will very easily find out how. The 3 main point are below:
1) If pass experience is any indication, the chuck indexes are always off by 2 or more degrees each. With the 6 bitz I have which should all be 120 degree, it is actually ,120, 118, and 122 on all 6. It is not an IF, but what is out there.
2) it uses a nock receiver, which if you put the nock in, the nock has play and unless the nock receiver hold the nock perfectly and there is absolutely no movement at all. there is play, thus angles of absolute fletching can be off, not to mention as the angle of the shaft is always not going to be perfectly straight, the shaft is always going to be pointing down which as the nock rocks, the angle of the fletch on the vane will NEVER be even.
3) The play between the index chuck and the bitz main body itself. a 1 mm space gap will equivalent to about 5 degree base on the size of the arrow, assuming it is 0.204"

With the Aerovane Jig I designed, that is exactly what I have addressed.
1) The chuck is made of 6061T6 with Titanium Nitrate coating on a CNC machine with a zirconium nitrate ABEC#5 ball so the index is +/-0.005 mm or 1/72 of a degree
2) I use a 303 stainless 0.05 roughness slide chuck so by eliminate the nock, the inside of the arrow shaft should be the most accurate one can deal with. Not to mention by using a ball hearing hook holder base on specific shaft size, the leveling of the shaft will be just about PERFECT.
3) By using 2 ABEC#5 ball bearing with Thermo fitting process, the index will be +/- 0.0002" of play on all 3 axis.

That about sum up of why and how I take care of the fletching on jig accuracy issue.

Dorge
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 04-07-2011, 11:43 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 391
Re: TAC 15/15i Basic Unpublished Information

Hi Dorge,
Once again, thank you for the input and the explanation on the lack of accuracy on the Bitzenburger Fletching Jig and the accuracy of the ones that you produce and sell.

Just to summarize for our readers that may be a bit less technical, please correct me if I'm wrong. What you are pointing out is the fact that what I had originally stated about the Bitzenburger Jig was incorrect because there is a sizeable degree of rotational error inherent within the jig and also within its nock receiver. This deviation can occur each time a new arrow is placed in one of these jigs, so the deviation from arrow to arrow can be anywhere from +2 to -2 degrees from the desired setting. This would mean that each arrow produced is not in the exact same alignment as previously thought.

Does that summaries it correctly?

Can you by any chance estimate how much flight deviation this margin might account for at longer distances such as 80 to 100 yards, in inches on the face of a target? Could we be talking about 1" of possible deviation or could we be talking about 3" - 5" inches?

This factor gives our readers an idea of how critical it might be to have precise arrow fletching equipment.

Thanks again for your technical input.

P.S. I just received a package of your TAC15 Firenocks and will be using them to replace the PSE TAC15 Standard Nocks that I had to remove during Spine Indexing and Spine Deflection Testing of a couple dozen arrows. I'm impressed with the design and fit of the new nocks.

Regards,

Jon
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 04-08-2011, 12:02 AM
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 55
Re: TAC 15/15i Basic Unpublished Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by jon.henry755 View Post
Just to summarize for our readers that may be a bit less technical, please correct me if I'm wrong. What you are pointing out is the fact that what I had originally stated about the Bitzenburger Jig was incorrect because there is a sizeable degree of rotational error inherent within the jig and also within its nock receiver. This deviation can occur each time a new arrow is placed in one of these jigs, so the deviation from arrow to arrow can be anywhere from +2 to -2 degrees from the desired setting. This would mean that each arrow produced is not in the exact same alignment as previously thought.

Does that summaries it correctly?
That does not summaries it. The degree of each vane even on the same jig is already off due to the manufacturing process inaccuracy. Then the error/play of each part of the jig is where the error will compound to the accuracy of each vane, even on the same arrow, and it also can compound form arrow to arrow.

For simplicity I shall assume we use 3 vanes index which is most common, the four vane index had not been tested by me so I cannot be sure what the variation is.
1) 2 vanes are off or 2 degree together due to the inaccuracy of the index (4 degrees total), assume vane one is at zero.
2) the play (tolerance) of the jig to the body would be as high as 5-7 degree base on shaft size (assuming we are talking 0.300 ID shaft)
3) the nock play/rock (tolerance) of the arrow on the receiver, base on angle that it is resting on as it turns, will add another 5-7 degree to the inaccuracy.

Now you know why even with the same jig without some careful and know how to use the jig and chuck one can easily add 2+5+5 or 12 of maximum of 4 +7+7 degree off "EACH" vane. Not to mention the variation of each arrow to arrow, every segment of the error and happen to each arrow.

In most cases, the softer the vane, the less of an issue of vane accuracy due to what most common vanes do. Fluttering, delta vortex, 2nd and 3rd back end vortex issues. Not to mention sound/directional energy lost. Those are all contribution factors to how an archery projectile can impact the target accurately. When one use vane like Aerovane (which is airfoil base vanes) that little error becomes a very big deal as all errors are now amplified. At high speed, aerodynamic is KING which is also the reason why archery projectile if design right can be one of the few that can handle side wind! One only need to understand Giro and air drill concept to understand how those projectile can cheat wind and gravity via flying (circular lift). To learn more about Aerovane and why a perfect accurate vane setting is essential for Aerovane, you can visit Firenock: Home Page aerovane section and Aerovane FAQ for more answers.

I hope this help you to understand more about how and why most archery projectile are not to shot into long range and how come it is so difficult until now to be able to repeat the long range shooting with confidence.
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 04-08-2011, 04:23 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 391
Re: TAC 15/15i Basic Unpublished Information

Hi Dorge,
Now that you've outlined how much deviation can occur in the fletching process with vane placement, can you give us a few words about what you've done with the design of the Firenocks to help improve the accuracy and consistency of the nocks over the standard PSE TAC15 nocks?

What is the biggest deficiency of the standard nocks?


Regards,

Jon Henry
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 04-09-2011, 02:51 PM
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 55
Re: TAC 15/15i Basic Unpublished Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by jon.henry755 View Post
What is the biggest deficiency of the standard nocks?
Long range archery is about consistency. In one word, the more consistant one can make the nock to nock, the better it will be. At Firenock we only use Bayer makelon polycarbonate whcih besides the best modling consistant flow, light transmission, IZOD factor are about the best there is. and we have the lightest nock for the tac (firenock D is about 1/3 weight of the Tac). To have the absolute consistency, I only use single cavity mould so EVERY nock comes out of the same mould, thus if temperature if maintained, they can be +/- 0.000002 mm variance.

Like all true nocks, the nock throat consistency is the abosolute on release accuracy as the pressure off the nock and on the nock must be the SAME EVERYTIME.

PSE Standard nock is from a 35 year old mould. The tolerance is all over the place. The plastic it uses is about as average as it gets. The IZOD factor of that specific plastic is a lot less to be desire. Do not take my word for it. Press it through the string a few times and the nock throat opening will no longer be the same.

With Firenock D nock, you got a lighted nock if you so desire. To learn more about the different computer system you can get with Firenock, you can visit Firenock.com. At this time, we offer 18 variation of Lighted nock for the Tac arrow:
1) 1 nock color (red)
2) 6 LED colors
3) 3 circuit functions
4) 2 different batteries (Shelf life, temperature tolerance)

This would be what I would start as how we are different. Better? That would depends on what you desire and want.
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 04-09-2011, 04:17 PM
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: North West Washington
Posts: 80
Re: TAC 15/15i Basic Unpublished Information

Coming from a molding background, I must say that I am impressed!

1: Bayer is indeed a leader in polymer engineering and quality control.
2: Making production runs of a part as small as an arrow nock from a single cavity mold is an extreme quality control measure and expensive to say the least. Regular replacement of the mold would be dictated due to wear from the molding process to maintain the strict standards you have set for yourself.

I congratulate you on your efforts.

What molding machine are you using?
__________________
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter can not be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”

Col. Jeff Cooper
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads for: TAC 15/15i Basic Unpublished Information
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Need some basic cleaning advice. deermaster The Basics, Starting Out 4 01-11-2011 11:35 PM
Basic Gunsmithing that you can do J E Custom Gunsmithing 9 11-22-2008 06:26 PM
CZ 513 basic britz Rimfire and Airguns 3 06-27-2007 08:32 PM
Reloading die micrometer or basic? 270yotekiller Reloading 1 10-24-2005 03:24 PM
Basic reload question KRob Reloading 19 05-26-2005 03:08 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC