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12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH;585HE/700HE, other Big Bores--

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Unread 01-31-2013, 01:53 AM
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Posts: 310
Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH;585HE/700HE, other Big Bores--

Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to
be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller
45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.
This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

More info on the SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into
them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500
they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same
combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on
right is factory SPW.

Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this
12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of
Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.
That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug
in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly
short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.
Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.

Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585
barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the
back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed

As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up
24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use
reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load
say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card
and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about
airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you
can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real
speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed
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  •   #72  
    Unread 02-26-2013, 02:15 AM
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    Join Date: Sep 2006
    Posts: 310
    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH;585HE/700HE, other Big Bores--

    First picture is of nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up
    and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.

    Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead
    roundball with section of copper tube, with wads inside, bpgs seal on the
    bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with
    screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube
    with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.

    Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4
    ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.
    Just glue top card in.Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie
    slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going
    over 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup.

    Next is a Mossy 390 with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,
    and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as
    the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed

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    Unread 03-16-2013, 07:45 PM
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    Join Date: Sep 2006
    Posts: 310
    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH;585HE/700HE, other Big Bores--

    Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in
    the 1887 WIN shown above. They are 2 5/8" long cases and we
    get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed
    these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length
    as 3' plastic crimped little long.

    Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall
    10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit
    VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga.

    Next; further idea with Longbow's tube/roundball slug shown above.
    Use tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in
    a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used
    in wads as opposed to fullbore.

    Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE
    cases. Got the idea from Bret In Minn that could setup 585HE
    guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to
    make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire
    in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about
    4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have.
    And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed
    for 6000 ft lbs. And one that long would have proportions like the
    newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts, that it could be
    possibly be done, using long 2400gr in smooth barrel.
    Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads.

    Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock and light
    barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs.
    Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels. 650gr at 2500 is max of
    what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load
    .Little info about my 585 loads, like in the break actions and the
    Mossy in post above. I load about 85% max velocities, but to get
    85% we only need 2/3 the peak pressure, like 40,000 psi
    instead of 65,000...Ed

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    Unread 03-28-2013, 11:52 PM
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    Join Date: Sep 2006
    Posts: 310
    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH;585HE/700HE, other Big Bores--

    We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs.

    The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier this week. And we got a bunch
    of testing already for opening and sealing, and some accuracy testing .440gr
    Minie bullet, measuring .575"; with OD of sabot with slug in it of .737" It is
    perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all
    stayed on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower
    powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case.
    Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with slower powders expanded
    only a little, and those cases are soft ones.
    We have big bunch of the sabots here now.

    All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up.
    With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting.
    Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling. Most of the rifling grip is on the
    bottom half of sabot, which is why these and Accutips are best as the bottom
    is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many
    other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean..

    The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did not cut into the inside of the
    sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness.
    Good Accuracy - In the cold and very windy day, hit milk jugs at 30 yds.
    Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under
    slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the
    curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit...

    You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shot,
    that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots.
    It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying to get twice as many
    shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups,
    miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

    Get with me for cases -- gunowner at Ph- 1-989-644-5228
    THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
    Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included, or $20 for 50 postage included,
    with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order.
    to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed

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    Unread 03-30-2013, 03:21 PM
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    Join Date: Sep 2006
    Posts: 310
    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH;585HE/700HE, other Big Bores--

    Here is picture of a bunch of the sabots with different slugs and bullets.
    Back Row- Two roundball load, balls 285gr each-- pointed long 700 gr -- a blunt
    solid 700gr-- tungsten slug 1000gr --- jacketed bullet -- 600gr.
    2nd row-611 Lyman 530gr Minie- 500gr flat base- Lee 500gr hard--Lee 500gr soft
    1st Row- Lyman 440gr old style minie-- Lyman 510 gr new style-- 440gr from Dixie
    Gunworks-- 400gr Lee target style. I like 440gr old style and 440 gr Dixie. For sale
    on Gunbroker is all sizes and weights.. Or cast your own. Lots of moulds around.
    Lee moulds only 20 bucks. Best diameters to use are .574 " to .577" Minies.
    If you have ones bigger and they are not hardened you can roll them betweem two
    hard surfaces and they will get little smaller. I have some that are .585" 440gr
    and work in my 585HE and they can be rolled smaller.

    Here are sabots with variety of seals/wads, and the shortest one in picture with
    white felt wad just fits in 3" case with 80gr 4759, and still leaves room to roll crimp.
    I compress it in hard. Now only faster powder than 4759 I'd use is Alliant Steel in
    smaller amounts, 50gr Steel, in 3", and thicker wads and cushions like shown.
    To roll crimp over the top edge of sabot we had .220" of case before crimping.
    You only have to crimp top edge of sabot real good.

    After crimping the slugs are tight and don't move around. The circular rib inside the
    sabot holds slugs tight back into the base. Speeds over 2000 fps
    will be gotten using 3.5" plastic cases, with our slower powder loads. .
    More testing for accuracy yesterday, a warmer, calmer day, with steel sights.
    Hit. paper plate at 50 yds.

    As said above, best to use right powders. Right slower powders( not fast shot,
    that get to peak pressure slower, thus can use larger amounts, can get to higher
    velocities, and you won't tear up the sabots and won't expand cases as much.

    For most of you in 2.75" and 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.
    FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75" start at 40gr and go up to about 50.
    For 3" start at 45gr go up to about 55. I like 3.5" best as you can load much easier
    for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62.
    Case brands act different, but using the slower powders minimizes the differences
    and keeps us away from surprizing pressure problems.

    In 3" plastic,most 4759 I can get in and still have 1/4"cushion is 80gr.... In the 3.5"
    I can get in 105 gr with this sabot and get over 2000 fps, In these loads if using
    480-500gr cut back 3 gr. These 58cal slugs can be cast or they are at Dixie Gunworks
    and 4 guys on Gunbroker got them. Get ones .574" to .577"

    Interested in sabots--- gunowner at Ph- 1-989-644-5228
    THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
    Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included.
    Or $20 for 50 postage included..
    .Or 150 for $45 postage included----- ALL with a bonus
    WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order. 15 with 150 order.
    to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..
    We want you to help test and find what is best....Ed
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    Unread 04-04-2013, 01:32 AM
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    Join Date: Sep 2006
    Posts: 310
    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH;585HE/700HE, other Big Bores--

    Here is picture of 45-50yd target, used a scoped NEF Ultra, the sabot load of a 440gr
    58cal slug in it at 1800... Measures 2.5" on outside for 3 shots.

    Here is pic of almost 2100 of them. More coming. Time to
    get them and get loads working.

    A little levity in this process.Ed

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    Unread 04-09-2013, 04:23 PM
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    Join Date: Sep 2006
    Posts: 310
    Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH;585HE/700HE, other Big Bores--

    Some more info about our sabots and various slug weights......
    First and most important is our sabots fitting real tight like the Accutip
    Sabots, they will not get the same speed at the same pressures as
    the undersize grey and blue ones, But they do leave the barrel
    headed straighter and without damage, even with hollowbase 58cal
    slugs in them as the pics above show. No cards under slugs in sabots.,
    But with good powder seals, using Alliant Steel, and good 1/4" minimum
    cushion wads.

    The 440gr Minie slug of .575" in the 3" cases is the one I used as a
    base loading, to work each way by weight to find what loads of
    Alliant Steel work and extract in my NEF. Using 3" soft base cases.
    Here is pic of before/after of Fiocchi cases, on right unfired and left
    fired, 55gr Steel with 440 gr slug.

    For 440gr max of 55gr Steel
    For 400gr max of 57gr Steel
    For 360gr max of 59gr Steel

    For 490gr max of 52gr Steel.
    For 510gr max of 49gr Steel
    For 540gr max of 47gr Steel.

    I tested all these weights for extraction. It is real nice to reach into a
    bucket, grap a sabot that fits right, and go to loading and shooting.
    Many of you need to get in on the fun.
    Here is picture of Fiocchi with sabot, roll crimped. The top of sabot is
    perfect for roll crimping...It is setting under crimp tool in drill press.

    Earler I showed the 585HE Falling block with pistol grip and the light
    barrel. Here it is with Knoxx Compstock buttstock. We added 2 extra
    springs inside for relatively hard recoiling gun, as stock originally made
    for a REM 870 Pump. Works great and looks nice; will putting one on
    the Magtech 585HE singleshot break action and got one in rifle stock
    for Ruger 77 in 585HE.

    And many guys want wildcats with shoulders, with big neck down, so
    in developing the ultimate 700 blaster, here is the 700HSM. Shown next
    to Gibbs 650gr ball powder..1000gr at 3800...How about that.
    Will be one of only 2 guns I plan on being over 30 lbs, other is 2bore..

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